The Roche Family and Irish Cycling

[red_flanders]

Hitch also think's nobody in this Vuelta is in top form other than Horner!!

I think if you look at the seasons of Nibali, Valverde and Rodriguez that's probably very accurate.

 

[pmcg76]

I think if you look at the seasons of Nibali, Valverde and Rodriguez that's probably very accurate.

Hey I don't disagree with that idea either which is why for me, it's not strange to see a guy who has good placing in other races and has targeted this race specifically to ride close to the level of these guys now.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Roche

**** the hypocrisy ‏@Digger_forum12h

By the way, Irish or not, what Roche is doing, and the company He's doing it in, does not Inspire any belief.

**** the hypocrisy ‏@Digger_forum12h

Remembering he had a bad day in the rain. Outside of that he's right in the middle of some interesting characters.

 

[pmcg76]

**** the hypocrisy ‏@Digger_forum12h

By the way, Irish or not, what Roche is doing, and the company He's doing it in, does not Inspire any belief.

**** the hypocrisy ‏@Digger_forum12h

Remembering he had a bad day in the rain. Outside of that he's right in the middle of some interesting characters.

Wow top source you have there, another poster from this forum who believes everyone is doping. Could you maybe find someone with actual inside knowledge of the sport or are you just going to keep quoting anonymous forum poster's.

 

[Cycle Chic]

how about you rack off and don't respond to my posts - you really are a TOOL !

 

[pmcg76]

how about you rack off and don't respond to my posts - you really are a TOOL !

What, do you have a problem with me illustrating how much garbage you post??

You can always put me on ignore if your not happy.

 

[Benotti69]

Wow top source you have there, another poster from this forum who believes everyone is doping. Could you maybe find someone with actual inside knowledge of the sport or are you just going to keep quoting anonymous forum poster's.

Where is the go to source for doping of all riders in the peloton?

There isn't one. The fans are left to join dots. Fans are playing with a high batting average. For others to cry like Armstrong and his fans did for years 'never tested positive' is worth nothing.

Look at Roche and whom he surrounds himslef with. Read what he writes. Then come to an opinion. It does not piant a picture of cleanliness.

 

[pmcg76]

Where is the go to source for doping of all riders in the peloton?

There isn't one. The fans are left to join dots. Fans are playing with a high batting average. For others to cry like Armstrong and his fans did for years 'never tested positive' is worth nothing.

Look at Roche and whom he surrounds himslef with. Read what he writes. Then come to an opinion. It does not piant a picture of cleanliness.[/QUO

Why does it matter who he surrounds himself or what hs says because as you believe everyone dopes anyway, you will always draw the same conclusion.

For example if he moved to Garmin, you would have the same belief. Where could he go that would not draw suspicion in your eyes.

Have a read of that blog someone posted by Cameron Wurf, reads much the same as anything Roche writes, admires Horner, rides for Liquigas so therefore has to be a doper in your eyes.

Fortunately I can see things in more than black or white.

 

[Benotti69]

Why does it matter who he surrounds himself or what hs says because as you believe everyone dopes anyway, you will always draw the same conclusion.

So surround yourself with former dopers and those who enable doping but have people believe you dont dope. Hmm not sure how that works. Worked for Armstrong and his minions, i suppose some still fall for it.

For example if he moved to Garmin, you would have the same belief. Where could he go that would not draw suspicion in your eyes.

nowhere in the peloton imo is free from suspicion.

Have a read of that blog someone posted by Cameron Wurf, reads much the same as anything Roche writes, admires Horner, rides for Liquigas so therefore has to be a doper in your eyes.

Why would anyone admire the likes of Horner, nearly 42 and riding like a 28year old? Admiring a doper, hmm that is an easy one to call.

Fortunately I can see things in more than black or white.

Unfortunately the sport is run by the same people who let Armstrong run free as the doping king.

It is pretty much black, white and all the greys in between, but you keep looking for gold at the end of that rainbow, put on a pair of read shoes too and click them together saying "I want a clean peloton", that works.

 

[gooner]

Wow top source you have there, another poster from this forum who believes everyone is doping. Could you maybe find someone with actual inside knowledge of the sport or are you just going to keep quoting anonymous forum poster's.

Amen to that. Just a constant doping obsession where it's the same thing said so many times that it eventually loses it's effect. No different to some around here. It's a default position. The last people I listen to.

 

[gooner]

Where is the go to source for doping of all riders in the peloton?

There isn't one. The fans are left to join dots. Fans are playing with a high batting average. For others to cry like Armstrong and his fans did for years 'never tested positive' is worth nothing.

Look at Roche and whom he surrounds himslef with. Read what he writes. Then come to an opinion. It does not piant a picture of cleanliness.

Nico has criticised the Garmin lads and them only getting 6 month suspensions.

Look at Pinotti and whom he surrounds himself with. I'm inclined to believe him as a rider but has he addressed riding for Lelangue and Ochowicz in his column for CN and now Velonation. I'm not criticising him for not doing so, just that it's difficult for him to do so in his position of riding for them much in the same way Nico can't do it either.

 

[Cycle Chic]

**** the hypocrisy ‏@Digger_forum 14h

And just because I am Irish, I am naïve regarding Roche...no way do I believe he's clean.

**** the hypocrisy ‏@Digger_forum 14h

He's a sprinter who is now climbing, for the most part, with climbers who have doped.

 

[sniper]

Nico has criticised the Garmin lads and them only getting 6 month suspensions.

interesting.
if you have time, could you link it?

otherwise i agree that his performances in the vuelta looked mighty suspicious.
i haven't seen any indications that would suggest he's clean.
and so the question should be: why wouldn't he dope? what's the deterrent for Roche and does that deterrent weigh up to the financial gains of doping?

 

[Von Mises]

interesting.
if you have time, could you link it?

otherwise i agree that his performances in the vuelta looked mighty suspicious.
i haven't seen any indications that would suggest he's clean.
and so the question should be: why wouldn't he dope? what's the deterrent for Roche and does that deterrent weigh up to the financial gains of doping?

In 2010 Roche lost to winner (Nibali) five minutes and finished 7th in GC. In 2013 he lost to winner (Horner) 7 minutes and finished 5th. If you look his overall career, then yes, maybe he has improved a bit (though even this is debatable), but there has not been large jump. There is till clear difference between him and the best.

If his suspicious, then he has been suspicious from the very beginning of his career. In this Vuelta there was nothing special what would make him more suspicious.

 

[GloryHunter]

If his suspicious, then he has been suspicious from the very beginning of his career. In this Vuelta there was nothing special what would make him more suspicious.

What do you make of Roche's Time Trial performance at the Vuelta. Can't
recall ever seeing him put in such a performance in any Time Trial ever.

 

[elduggo]

What do you make of Roche's Time Trial performance at the Vuelta. Can't
recall ever seeing him put in such a performance in any Time Trial ever.

what about his performance? How do you think he performed? Just about the same as non-TT specialist GC contenders (apart from Valverde who was much stronger but who punctured)?

 

[Benotti69]

In 2010 Roche lost to winner (Nibali) five minutes and finished 7th in GC. In 2013 he lost to winner (Horner) 7 minutes and finished 5th. If you look his overall career, then yes, maybe he has improved a bit (though even this is debatable), but there has not been large jump. There is till clear difference between him and the best.

If his suspicious, then he has been suspicious from the very beginning of his career. In this Vuelta there was nothing special what would make him more suspicious.

Yes this is a probability. Roche started pro career at Cofidis '05/'06 during which time they had an admission by Philippe Gaumont for doping and the positive test by Tristan Valentin. While this does not prove anything it points to an enviroment that was not clean.

We were told the sport has cleanED up. But I have yet to see proof that tests work or that UCI wants to catch anyone doping for legitimate sporting reasons. Anti doping cant even find riders at hotels FFS.

 

[Inquitus]

Roche seems legit to me, he performed in line with ability at this Vuelta, and but for the echelon split his team created he would have finished 7th behind Pinot and Pozzo. His TT has improved slightly, but it was the sort of uphill TT that he can perform well in. He was struggling to hold onto the main GC group on a number of occasions, and put in the sort of Angliru performance we would have expected, shipping lots of time to all his GC rivals.

 

[GloryHunter]

what about his performance? How do you think he performed? Just about the same as non-TT specialist GC contenders (apart from Valverde who was much stronger but who punctured)?

Em, and not far behind Tony Martin and Cancellara. Roche has consistently finished in 20th odd or 30th odd place in time trials and just out of the blue he produces this performance above and far ahead of any performance he has ever produced before in an individual time trial. And who is the manager of Saxo Bank-Tinkoff; yes Bjarne Riis. An individual whom you could not trust as for as you could throw. Dodgier than dodgy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjarne_Riis

 

[Von Mises]

Yes this is a probability. Roche started pro career at Cofidis '05/'06 during which time they had an admission by Philippe Gaumont for doping and the positive test by Tristan Valentin. While this does not prove anything it points to an enviroment that was not clean.

We were told the sport has cleanED up. But I have yet to see proof that tests work or that UCI wants to catch anyone doping for legitimate sporting reasons. Anti doping cant even find riders at hotels FFS.

Gaumont was not in Cofidis anymore when Roche joined and Gaumont was not talking about Cofidis of Rochetime. Janek Tombak (who by Gaumont was one of the few clean riders in Cofidis) has said that team changed considerably after 2003-2004 doping scandals. Before that Cofidis tolerated doping (though they did not have team organized doping program and did not force to dope Armstrong style), but after 2004 they did not tolerate anymore, they introduced internal testing and forced several riders out. It points to changing environment, was it clean or cleaner, I do not know.

 

[Von Mises]

; yes Bjarne Riis. An individual whom you could not trust as for as you could throw. Dodgier than dodgy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjarne_Riis

Guilt by association is very convenient argument. Basically you can mark every single rider, every 20 year old newbie who joins whatever team is marked because you can always find team member, coach, manager, doctor etc with dodgy past.

 

[Von Mises]

Em, and not far behind Tony Martin and Cancellara.

Last year Tour Roche was ca 2.20 behind Cancellara, now 1.48. It is improvement (and I agree that he has improved his TT in general, not just in this Vuelta) but it is not massive jump.

 

[Samson777]

Guilt by association is very convenient argument. Basically you can mark every single rider, every 20 year old newbie who joins whatever team is marked because you can always find team member, coach, manager, doctor etc with dodgy past.

Yes and this is probably why nothing changes.. I mean; how does it help the case of the 20 year old marked newbie, that all his follow newbies, rightly is marked as well?

 

[pmcg76]

What do you make of Roche's Time Trial performance at the Vuelta. Can't
recall ever seeing him put in such a performance in any Time Trial ever.

You are right in one respect but then you look at who he was up against and it's not so surprising really, none of the top GC guys other than Nibali and maybe Valverde(who had misfortune) are good TT riders, Roche has beat them all before in TT. Was a seriously weak TT field.

Roche has improved slightly at Saxo Bank, no huge jump and nothing that better coaching couldn't achieve.

 

[Wigwan]

Last year Tour Roche was ca 2.20 behind Cancellara, now 1.48. It is improvement (and I agree that he has improved his TT in general, not just in this Vuelta) but it is not massive jump.

Wasn't the TdF TT flatter than the Vuelta's?