The Sky-Con-O-Meter. Predictions on how much more ridiculous they can get

[Krebs cycle]

krebs, each time these results are published it makes it even worse. First this was seven years ago, second he is smashed by Rogers (on TKom drugs program), he has just put more than 2 minutes into Cancellara, six minutes into Vino (who was on the juice), and six minutes into Kaschechkin. At the age of 32.

no what it does it throws your "showed no potential for road TT" theory out the window.

all you've got it is doping to fall back on which is something you actually know nothing about. oh rider a was doping then, but rider b wasn't. Rider c started doping in year x, but rider d went on a different doping program in yr z so he went 2min faster, blah blah blah

What a load of clinic bulldust. None of us know anything about all this. When are you going to wake up and realise the cold hard fact that training and preparation can easily make differences of 5 or 6 minutes at that level?

 

[sittingbison]

Chris Boardman?

World pursuit champ
World ITT champ

So there has been ONE rider in the history of the sport who has achieved 2 out of three (Track, ITT and GC). And it is the pursuit and ITT, not the pursuit and GC. And the rider is Chris Boardman.

Proves my point really, thanks %)

 

[Krebs cycle]

ditto my previous comment. krebs these results are showing just how ridiculous his current performances are.

ditto my previous post showing just how little you know about cycling science.

It is nonsensical that he goes slower after going onto his alleged super doping program which improved his results in the 2009 TdF.

 

[sittingbison]

no what it does it throws your "showed no potential for road TT" theory out the window...the cold hard fact that training and preparation can easily make differences of 5 or 6 minutes at that level?

I think these results emphasize the opposite krebs:
1) a 25 year old at the top of his game cant win a 22km TT
2) a guy who just won the pursuit gold come in 20th almost 5 minutes behind the two best ITTers of past decade then crushes them both three years later at agae 32

krebs, elite athletes are looking at 1% increases in performance through training and preperation. They are ALL doing everything they can to get that edge. They cannot miraculously get 10%-15% increases as they get to retiring age of 32.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Someone doesn't remember the TT at the 2009 worlds. Wiggo had a mechanical or two. It involved bike tossing and "I'm through with this ****!"-gestures.

 

[BroDeal]

Let's face it. Track cycling is a joke. The only people who care about it are a few Brits and Aussies. The real money is to be made on the road, so that is where the talented riders go. If Cancellara could be bothered to race on the track then his palmares would make Wiggins' look like those of a piker. Pointing to illustrious titles on the track is like pointing to illustrious titles at the neighborhood crit.

 

[Ferminal]

Wiggins was level with Martin until he tossed his bike. It would have been his best TT ever (at that point in his career).

 

[Krebs cycle]

I think these results emphasize the opposite krebs:
1) a 25 year old at the top of his game cant win a 22km TT
2) a guy who just won the pursuit gold come in 20th almost 5 minutes behind the two best ITTers of past decade then crushes them both three years later at agae 32

krebs, elite athletes are looking at 1% increases in performance through training and preperation. They are ALL doing everything they can to get that edge. They cannot miraculously get 10%-15% increases as they get to retiring age of 32.

dude you're making stuff up.

In the TdF prologues....

In 2007 Wiggins was 4.3% slower than Cancellara
In 2009 Wiggins was 1.6% slower than Cancellara
In 2012 Wiggins was 1.6% slower than Cancellara

There is NO miraculous 10-15% performance improvement relative to Cancellara. There is a relative improvement of 2.7% between 2007 and 2009.

A taper on its own can improve performance up to 4.5% in 3 weeks. A bad nights sleep can decrease performance by 4-5%.

Any evidence of doping using Wiggins' TT performances relative to Cancellara from 2007-2012 is weak at best. That doesn't mean he ISN'T doping, but you are claiming something that simply isn't true.

edit: and 32 is hardly retiring age. There have been over 30 GT winners aged 32 or older and in the past 10yrs the average winning age for GTs is 29.9yrs. Increasing average age of elite endurance athletes in modern times is a trend that spans many different sports.

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2008/12/6/683599/27-62-years-old

 

[Krebs cycle]

Wiggins was level with Martin until he tossed his bike. It would have been his best TT ever (at that point in his career).

In the UCI 2007 TT Wiggins is 3.9% slower than Cancellara
In the 2009 TT Martin is 4.3% slower than Cancellara.

So if Wiggins had stayed about level with Martin it would have represented a 0.4% decrease in performance relative to Cancellara.

Can you guys see where I am coming from now?

 

[Ferminal]

In the UCI 2007 TT Wiggins is 3.9% slower than Cancellara
In the 2009 TT Martin is 4.3% slower than Cancellara.

So if Wiggins had stayed about level with Martin it would have represented a 0.4% decrease in performance relative to Cancellara.

Can you guys see where I am coming from now?

Mendrisio was Cancellara's absolute TT'ing peak.

Go read the thread here, go watch the video of him nailing the descents, watch him sit up with 1km to go.

Edit: 300m to go.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

dude you're making stuff up.

In the TdF prologues....

In 2007 Wiggins was 4.3% slower than Cancellara
In 2009 Wiggins was 1.6% slower than Cancellara
In 2012 Wiggins was 1.6% slower than Cancellara

There is NO miraculous 10-15% performance improvement relative to Cancellara. There is a relative improvement of 2.7% between 2007 and 2009.

A taper on its own can improve performance up to 4.5% in 3 weeks. A bad nights sleep can decrease performance by 4-5%.

Any evidence of doping using Wiggins' TT performances relative to Cancellara from 2007-2012 is weak at best. That doesn't mean he ISN'T doping, but you are claiming something that simply isn't true.

edit: and 32 is hardly retiring age. There have been over 30 GT winners aged 32 or older and in the past 10yrs the average winning age for GTs is 29.9yrs. Increasing average age of elite endurance athletes in modern times is a trend that spans many different sports.

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2008/12/6/683599/27-62-years-old

Clean winners or...?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

2005 UCI Road World Championships – Men's time trial

1. Michael Rogers (AUS) 00:53.34
2. Iván Gutiérrez (ESP) + 0.23.77
3. Fabian Cancellara (SUI) + 0.23.89
4. Rubén Plaza (ESP) + 0.44.06
5. Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) + 1.20.24
6. Andrey Kaschechkin (KAZ) + 1.29.00
7. Bradley Wiggins (GBR) + 1.31.60

LMAO. 2005. The "clean era". Hilarious. Rogers even beat the Astana duo.

 

[BroDeal]

LMAO. 2005. The "clean era". Hilarious. Rogers even beat the Astana duo.

And Rogers claims he is better now. Those mood lights must work wonders.

 

[function]

So there has been ONE rider in the history of the sport who has achieved 2 out of three (Track, ITT and GC). And it is the pursuit and ITT, not the pursuit and GC. And the rider is Chris Boardman.

Proves my point really, thanks %)

It disproves your point unless you're changing your ask

Did you look at the final GC and MTs for the Dauphine?

10/06/1995 6ème étape - Briançon - Vaujany, 143 km (Montagne)
Pos Cycliste Nat Résultat
1 Richard Virenque (Festina - Lotus) FRA 4h15'22''
2 Jean-Cyril Robin (Festina - Lotus) FRA mt
3 Miguel Indurain (Banesto - Pinarello) ESP mt
4 Vicente Aparicio Vila (Banesto - Pinarello) ESP mt
5 Chris Boardman (Gan - Merckx) G-B mt
6 Carmelo Miranda Gonzalez (Banesto - Pinarello) ESP 21''
7 Miguel Arroyo Rosales (Chazal - MBK - Koenig) MEX 27''
8 Fabian Jeker (Festina - Lotus) SUI 2'14''
9 Thierry Laurent (Castorama) FRA 2'37''
10 Jose Ramon Gonzalez Arrieta (Banesto - Pinarello) ESP 3'03''


General Classification
Pos Cycliste Nat Résultat
1 Miguel Indurain (Banesto - Pinarello) ESP 28h51'32''
2 Chris Boardman (Gan - Merckx) G-B 2'21''
3 Vicente Aparicio Vila (Banesto - Pinarello) ESP 3'39''
4 Richard Virenque (Festina - Lotus) FRA 3'54''
5 Jean-Cyril Robin (Festina - Lotus) FRA 4'06''
6 Carmelo Miranda Gonzalez (Banesto - Pinarello) ESP 6'43''
7 Miguel Arroyo Rosales (Chazal - MBK - Koenig) MEX 7'21''
8 Alvaro Mejia Castrillon (Motorola) COL 8'20''
9 Andrea Peron (Motorola) ITA 9'22''
10 Thierry Laurent (Castorama) FRA mt

 

[Krebs cycle]

LMAO. 2005. The "clean era". Hilarious. Rogers even beat the Astana duo.

Dude, you need to keep up with the debate. A number of people have claimed that Wiggins was crap at TT on the road prior to 2009 and then he "miraculously" improved thereafter. Highlighting the uncleanliness of 2005 only makes that position seem more ridiculous.

 

[sittingbison]

...It disproves your point unless you're changing your ask...

function, my point is trying to debunk all the "he is a champion on the track which explains his devastating ITT the other day and his current GC position and climbing ability" commentary. Nobody in the entire history of cycling has been able to go from a track background and at age 32 suddenly blow away the opposition. For a whole season. Boardman did incredibly at being a pursuiter and ITT champ, but nobody in their right mind would ever consider him a GC contender (one Dauphine notwithstanding) even though he is considered one of the greatest ever cyclists.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

And Rogers claims he is better now. Those mood lights must work wonders.

Mick probably stole some of Horner's beet root juice and used it while working on his 100m freestyle. 'Cause nothing gets you faster on the bike than time in the pool. Or so the story goes.

 

[mastersracer]

function, my point is trying to debunk all the "he is a champion on the track which explains his devastating ITT the other day and his current GC position and climbing ability" commentary. Nobody in the entire history of cycling has been able to go from a track background and at age 32 suddenly blow away the opposition. For a whole season. Boardman did incredibly at being a pursuiter and ITT champ, but nobody in their right mind would ever consider him a GC contender (one Dauphine notwithstanding) even though he is considered one of the greatest ever cyclists.

Greg Lemond won the silver medal at the junior world championships in the pursuit and set a US record at the time. Who goes into track and who goes onto the road depends on a lot of factors - the level of track support, etc. Wiggins won the bronze medal in team pursuit at the age of 20 - who knows what his history would have been had he pursued the road. The notion that it is somehow in principle prohibitive to move from endurance track to a GC role seems specious. Wiggins has the right body morphology for a GC rider and the engine. It's not like the contingent history of a sport somehow represents laws of nature...

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Dude, you need to keep up with the debate. A number of people have claimed that Wiggins was crap at TT on the road prior to 2009 and then he "miraculously" improved thereafter. Highlighting the uncleanliness of 2005 only makes that position seem more ridiculous.

Wiggins wasn't crap at the TT on the road before 2009. He wasn't anywhere close to what he is today, but he wasn't crap by any stretch of the imagination. He could throw a bike farther than David Miller anyway.

 

[Krebs cycle]

function, my point is trying to debunk all the "he is a champion on the track which explains his devastating ITT the other day and his current GC position and climbing ability" commentary. Nobody in the entire history of cycling has been able to go from a track background and at age 32 suddenly blow away the opposition. For a whole season. Boardman did incredibly at being a pursuiter and ITT champ, but nobody in their right mind would ever consider him a GC contender (one Dauphine notwithstanding) even though he is considered one of the greatest ever cyclists.

Well you have to do a lot better than that because yet again you are using a strawman argument. You do not "debunk" the theory that a former world class pursuit cyclist cannot become a GC contender by pointing to the fact that he is the first one to do it. If you extended this logic to sporting performance in general then its akin to saying "nobody can ever achieve a world record (unless they are doping) because they are the first one to do it"

If you want to debunk the theory you need to tell me why in physiological terms it isn't possible. If you look at average power in world class pursuit (540W for 4min) and then apply that to the critical power model (ie: time versus power) then I think you'll find it is very possible for a world class pursuit rider to possess the required w/kg for 30 or 40min hill climbs in the TdF.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

There is no issue with a young track rider focusing on IP or TP, and being able to rock out on the road. In fact, it's almost "hand in glove".

There's my two cents.

I still hate Sky....

 

[sittingbison]

...and 32 is hardly retiring age. There have been over 30 GT winners aged 32 or older and in the past 10yrs...

2000 Lance Armstrong (29)
2001 Lance Armstrong (30)
2002 Lance Armstrong (31)
2003 Lance Armstrong (32)
2004 Lance Armstrong (33)
2005 Lance Armstrong (34)
2006 Óscar Pereiro (28)
2007 Alberto Contador (24)
2008 Carlos Sastre (33)
2009 Alberto Contador (26)
2010 Andy Schleck (26)
2011 Cadel Evans (34)

2000 Stefano Garzelli (27)
2001 Gilberto Simoni (29) (cocaine)
2002 Paolo Savoldelli (29)
2003 Gilberto Simoni (31) (cocaine)
2004 Damiano Cunego (23)
2005 Paolo Savoldelli (32)
2006 Ivan Basso (28)
2007 Danilo Di Luca (29)
2008 Alberto Contador (25)
2009 Denis Menchov (31)
2010 Ivan Basso (32)
2011 Michele Scarponi (31)
2012 Ryder Hesjedal (31)

2000 Roberto Heras (26)
2001 Ángel Casero (29)
2002 Aitor González (27)
2003 Roberto Heras (29)
2004 Roberto Heras (30)
2005 Denis Menchov (27)
2006 Alexander Vinokourov (33)
2007 Denis Menchov (29)
2008 Alberto Contador (25)
2009 Alejandro Valverde (29)
2010 Vincenzo Nibali (25)
2011 Juan José Cobo (30)

krebs I'm struggling to see a vast preponderance of these winners are over 32, and I wouldn't be too hasty in using the past 20 years of winners to demonstrate anything in particular viz a viz performance. Especially if you are trying to demonstrate a rider today is clean.

I'm giving up on this particular aspect of dopes, its become a nonsensical argument. Sadly onto the next one whoever it may be.

 

[Krebs cycle]

The average age of all the wins in black font is 28.8 +/- 3.8

Cadel won it last yr at 34yrs.

So 32 is well within 1 standard deviation of the mean. Its hardly an outlier.

I'm giving up too, it became nonsensical as soon as people started inventing made up stuff that never happened such as "miraculous improvement in ITT performance"

 

[function]

function, my point is trying to debunk all the "he is a champion on the track which explains his devastating ITT the other day and his current GC position and climbing ability" commentary. Nobody in the entire history of cycling has been able to go from a track background and at age 32 suddenly blow away the opposition. For a whole season. Boardman did incredibly at being a pursuiter and ITT champ, but nobody in their right mind would ever consider him a GC contender (one Dauphine notwithstanding) even though he is considered one of the greatest ever cyclists.

I understand, you did say that no one showed that capability, and yet here we have boardman doing just that by climbing with GT men on a mountain stage perhaps pick something else to support your stance.

 

[Ferminal]

I'm more worried about Cunego and Menchov being in the clear