The Spanish Pharmada

[Moose McKnuckles]

I don't like this nationality argument because it doesn't really lead to an appreciable outcome. In terms of US riders within the same European pro circuit as Spain, I guess at five positives / admissions of banned substance use. Not counting actual sanctions, amateurs or US/Latin America circuit.

Papp
Landis
Hamilton
Armstrong
Andreu

Subject to the constraints, did I miss any?

There would be no need for a nationality argument if the national federations would cease being complicit in the cover-up.

Look at France vs. Spain. I really do believe that the main reason French cyclists have not been as successful as Spanish cyclists or some other nationalities is that France has a much more aggressive anti-doping program.

 

[L'arriviste]

I don't like this nationality argument because it doesn't really lead to an appreciable outcome. In terms of US riders within the same European pro circuit as Spain, I guess at five positives / admissions of banned substance use. Not counting actual sanctions, amateurs or US/Latin America circuit.

US:

Papp
Landis
Hamilton
Armstrong
Andreu

ES:

Dueñas
Beltrán
Astarloza
Serrano
Guerra
Nozal
Colom
Pérez
Astarloa
Vila
Pecharroman Fabian
Peña
Torres
Mayo
Pastor
Osa, U
Osa, A
Grau
González, A
González, S
Hernandez
Pérez
Landaluze
Heras
Manzano
González de Galdeano
Delgado
de la Cruz
Del Olmo
Dominguez
Etxebarria
Hierro
Elorriaga
Maynar
Redondo
Fernández de la Puebla
Vazquez Hueso
Rosendo Prado
Lobato Elvira
Mosquera
García da Peña
Contador

Subject to the constraints, did I miss any?

Just updated the list as above per constraints mentioned. Everybody please correct. Thanks.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Good research, l'arriviste.

 

[L'arriviste]

Good research, l'arriviste.

Thanks, ever since I got back into cycling, I've read this forum and I've decided to gather together all doping cases into a database application. I've been working on it "silently" since July this year.

So far I have 246 people (riders, managers, doctors, masseurs, etc), 265 teams and 323 respectable, published sources running from 1980 to the present day in the UCI pro European circuit.

It is designed to be multi-contributor - a folksonomy if you will - so anyone out there who wants to help - e.g. with other regions, earlier dates, etc - please PM me.

My aim is that everyone on this forum and everyone else anywhere who wants to namedrop/thingdrop will soon be able just to post a permalink.

Every person or thing in the database must have a valid, published source from a respectable publication otherwise the record cannot be created/edited.

The data will be creative commons. But I have my own selfish reasons for doing this work too. I will be using the database to try out wild and experimental data visualisations which may, to put it one way, suggest probabilities and illuminate hidden trends.

 

[pedaling squares]

Gosh, you're a fri**in bigot.

He's not saying that the Spanish are a dirty people, he's just pointing out the seemingly high percentage of doping within their ranks. He backed up his point, can you back up yours? Name calling does us no good.

And those stats are frightening. Combine that with the federation's apparent disinterest in the Valverde affair and you have to wonder how seriously they take this issue.

 

[khardung la]

I don't know the answer to that question. How many?

Well the cyclists busted in 2000-2010:

ESP:40,ITA 36,USA 14,BEL 13,GER 11,FRA 10,POL 10,COL 10,POR 8,SWI 6,GUA 4,VEN 4,NED 4,CZE 3,KAZ 2

The ratio of dopers ESP/USA is 2,85

I am not loosing more my time calculating the same ratio for the number of proffesional cyclists, because it is obvious that it is probably about 10-12 to 1

Same appplies to Germany, Poland, Colombia, Portugal, Belgium...

The innocents throw the first stone

 

[Nick777]

"The Spanish Pharmada"

You should win something for that title....

 

[roundabout]

Well the cyclists busted in 2000-2010:

ESP:40,ITA 36,USA 14,BEL 13,GER 11,FRA 10,POL 10,COL 10,POR 8,SWI 6,GUA 4,VEN 4,NED 4,CZE 3,KAZ 2

The ratio of dopers ESP/USA is 2,85

I am not loosing more my time calculating the same ratio for the number of proffesional cyclists, because it is obvious that it is probably about 10-12 to 1

Same appplies to Germany, Poland, Colombia, Portugal, Belgium...

The innocents throw the first stone

Offredo and Chavanel already did

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Well the cyclists busted in 2000-2010:

ESP:40,ITA 36,USA 14,BEL 13,GER 11,FRA 10,POL 10,COL 10,POR 8,SWI 6,GUA 4,VEN 4,NED 4,CZE 3,KAZ 2

The ratio of dopers ESP/USA is 2,85

I am not loosing more my time calculating the same ratio for the number of proffesional cyclists, because it is obvious that it is probably about 10-12 to 1

Same appplies to Germany, Poland, Colombia, Portugal, Belgium...

The innocents throw the first stone

Give a source for that, will ya? I think Kazakhstan had more than 2.

 

[luckyboy]

Thanks, ever since I got back into cycling, I've read this forum and I've decided to gather together all doping cases into a database application. I've been working on it "silently" since July this year.

So far I have 246 people (riders, managers, doctors, masseurs, etc), 265 teams and 323 respectable, published sources running from 1980 to the present day in the UCI pro European circuit.

It is designed to be multi-contributor - a folksonomy if you will - so anyone out there who wants to help - e.g. with other regions, earlier dates, etc - please PM me.

My aim is that everyone on this forum and everyone else anywhere who wants to namedrop/thingdrop will soon be able just to post a permalink.

Every person or thing in the database must have a valid, published source from a respectable publication otherwise the record cannot be created/edited.

The data will be creative commons. But I have my own selfish reasons for doing this work too. I will be using the database to try out wild and experimental data visualisations which may, to put it one way, suggest probabilities and illuminate hidden trends.

Wow, that sounds interesting. When can we see?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Thanks, ever since I got back into cycling, I've read this forum and I've decided to gather together all doping cases into a database application. I've been working on it "silently" since July this year.

So far I have 246 people (riders, managers, doctors, masseurs, etc), 265 teams and 323 respectable, published sources running from 1980 to the present day in the UCI pro European circuit.

It is designed to be multi-contributor - a folksonomy if you will - so anyone out there who wants to help - e.g. with other regions, earlier dates, etc - please PM me.

My aim is that everyone on this forum and everyone else anywhere who wants to namedrop/thingdrop will soon be able just to post a permalink.

Every person or thing in the database must have a valid, published source from a respectable publication otherwise the record cannot be created/edited.

The data will be creative commons. But I have my own selfish reasons for doing this work too. I will be using the database to try out wild and experimental data visualisations which may, to put it one way, suggest probabilities and illuminate hidden trends.

Quite impressive indeed!

 

[khardung la]

Give a source for that, will ya? I think Kazakhstan had more than 2.

The information was gathered by Robbie Hunter using the probably incomplete but quite informative attempt of making a doping list in wikipedia http://twitter.com/RobbieHunter/statuses/26167002236

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

Would be great to get another source. Specially because you are right, and in wikipedia they acknowledge 3 KAZ cases (Vino, Fofonov and Kashechkin). I m working on it.

 

[L'arriviste]

The information was gathered by Robbie Hunter using the probably incomplete but quite informative attempt of making a doping list in wikipedia http://twitter.com/RobbieHunter/statuses/26167002236

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

Would be great to get another source. Specially because you are right, and in wikipedia they acknowledge 3 KAZ cases (Vino, Fofonov and Kashechkin). I m working on it.

These are all correct.

Sources recorded in my database are:

Fofonov
Kashechkin
Vino (there are of course plenty of other sources for Vino)

According to my research, the only other case of riders from Kazakhstan (pro European road) was Assan Bazayev who was sanctioned by the UCI in 2009 for failing to properly notify of his whereabouts.

Nothing much else on that particular story, but it is part of a clear trend I have been seeing in my work which suggests (perhaps surprisingly) that sources are becoming more difficult to find the more recent the offence. Why? Well, the main causes I'm seeing are "internal" procedures - teams handling things themselves quietly - and the bio passport, cases associated with which are increasingly described merely as "irregularities".

I think "irregularity" will be this decade's answer to "contractual violation" - an inocuous collective phrase for a multitude of sins, a headline killer.

Apart from these cases, I have also recorded a KZ former rider connected to doping. This is Oleg Kozlitine, who was criminally convicted as a supplier of EPO in the Cofidis affair whilst DS of a small feeder team called Saint Quentin - Oktos.

 

[No_Balls]

Being partly spanish myself i am little disappointed about the high percentage of spaniards getting caught in this traps. But, given how many spanish pros there are, i think this is sadly the logic outcome in this sport.

However, every country would protect "their" riders and i don´t trust any form of national stance in this matter.

Let´s wait and see how the Contador-gate turns out. I am very pleased of his transparency in his allegations and are fully aware of his damaged reputation as outcome. Compare that with a certain american.

 

[L'arriviste]

Wow, that sounds interesting. When can we see?

I'm not sure yet. I wanted to get a "complete" picture within the constraints I've set myself before I released anything. Also, I haven't actually created a public interface yet - I've only developed the administrative controls. I want to invite contributions but the interface may still be a bit restrictive at the moment.

 

[python]

These are all correct.
<snip>

According to my research, the only other case of riders from Kazakhstan (pro European road) was Assan Bazayev who was sanctioned by the UCI in 2009 for failing to properly notify of his whereabouts.

<snip>.

i think it was not the official uci but the internal team suspension by bruyneel for a missed test. the sources in english may be incorrect or lacking.

Maertens said the ban was an internal team decision, not one prompted by UCI rules.

 

[L'arriviste]

i think it was not the official uci but the internal team suspension by bruyneel for a missed test. the sources in english may be incorrect or lacking.

Thanks, Python. That'll teach me to read the article! Updated in my database as a contractual violation!

 

[python]

Thanks, Python. That'll teach me to read the article! Updated in my database as a contractual violation!

it's been my problem too - every time i felt like investing some effort in a new project i had to think do i really have the time and the patience to read through 1000s of pages...and eventually i'd just pick those i really felt i'd enjoy as a mental candy rather than money.

btw, i'm sure you properly picked up astana's gusev fired by bruyneel but never sanctioned by the uci, right ? though the fact of his blood doping is almost 100% despite him winning 5 law suits. as was unearthed by some danish journo, the uci obtained unofficial positive epo tests on him on damsgaard's prompting - it almost became another uci scandal.

 

[L'arriviste]

it's been my problem too - every time i felt like investing some effort in a new project i had to think do i really have the time and the patience to read through 1000s of pages...and eventually i'd just pick those i really felt i'd enjoy as a mental candy rather than money.

btw, i'm sure you properly picked up astana's gusev fired by bruyneel but never sanctioned by the uci, right ? though the fact of his blood doping is almost 100% despite him winning 5 law suits. as was unearthed by some danish journo, the uci obtained unofficial positive epo tests on him on damsgaard's prompting - it almost became another uci scandal.

Yes indeed, he's in there, likewise for a contractual violation! I'd be very interested in a source for these "unofficial positive EPO tests" though, for the record.

 

[python]

Yes indeed, he's in there, likewise for a contractual violation! I'd be very interested in a source for these "unofficial positive EPO tests" though, for the record.

http://newcyclingpathways.blogspot.com/2010/05/more-allegations-against-bruyneel-and.html

 

[khardung la]

I would suggest to move the very interesting discussion of a list and statistics of doping to a thread of its own. The last posts deserve it and are not specifically related to "Spanish Pharmada".

It would be nice to have a place (maybe with a sticky) where we could discuss how to contribute to build a complete list of doping cases.

 

[dr_wok]

I agree with Paddy

I know he's easy to dislike, but I agree with Pat McQuaid for criticising the Spanish Government (not the Spanish people).

- So the chief judge (?Serrano) sat on Puerto blood bags for years, saying they wouldn't share them with sporting authorities, because it was a criminal matter, then saying there wasn't a defined 'crime' they can prosecute.

- The only bag to see the light of day was Basso's which was (legally) released to Italy when the chief judge was on holiday. (In hindsight, did Ullrich's get released too?)

- When Basso's DNA was found in the Puerto blood bag, one of the first to defend him was the Spanish Minister for Sport, who was highly critical of the Italian Federation's process.

- Recently the authorities investigating Puerto have said, as they can't link them to criminal cases, they will likely close the case and destroy the blood bags. No mention is made of sharing this evidence with sporting authorities or WADA.

Compare this to the US, where a whole Federal investigation is started on the basis of an individual's statement (backed up by others) with very little hard evidence. This investigation is cooperating with Interpol and I assume WADA. The US prosecutors seem to have no problem linking these allegations to possible crimes (fraud etc).

There seems to be political will in the US to investigate. In Spain, I can only see a political will to cover things up. On the basis of this, I too would be pointing the finger at the Spanish Government if I was McQuaid. And what power does the UCI have to clean up Spanish problems? None, other than applying public and political pressure onto the Spanish. That is what McQuaid did in the recent interview.

I don't mean to be a bigot, but Puerto was a joke and it was the Spanish Government and judges who covered it up, and still do.

(all references from CN articles, too lazy to track them down).

 

[Frosty]

Basso got done for Puerto but i think it was Valverde who was DNA linked years after? Still interesting to see the differences though.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Dr Wok

nice post, didn´t saw it that way. Since McQuaids bad reputation it seems all he does is wrong. But to blame spains government, he´s right.

BTW, somehow the Ullrich DNA got to german prosecutors and he was "killed" by media. It´s ok to penalize dopers, but it´s not ok at all if other dopers are allowed to race and covered up.

It was even better in the 90s, b/c all were treated the same.

 

[dr_wok]

You're right, it was valverde's blood which finally was matched by Italian prosecutors, not basso's. Thanks frosty. My mistake.