The time of the new "pure Climber" resurgence

[Eric8-A]

What about Franco Pellizotti?

 

[greenedge]

To me a pure climber is a rider so good in the mountains that he can ride them tempo or just explode with a devastating attack. The ability or inability to tt should not be taken into account. A true climber should be able to attack solo on any mtf with out domestics and ride people off his wheel. I have never seen basso do this, neither the shclecks or Levi and cadel our Rodriguez. At least not the way ricco, contador or pantani.

In it you do not specify how many people they have to ride off their wheel.

Basso has, JROD has, Andy has and Cadel sort of rode Contador off his wheel ( though he is not a pure climber )

 

[greenedge]

Agree, except Contador is not a pure climber, that exactly why he's won many GTs.

I disagree. He won two stages in the Giro this year and could have won 3 ( maybe 4 on Gardeccia ) more. He can drop all the pure climbers as well. Maybe he is not pure in the sense he is good at ITTing as well but he is the benchmark on all the climbs.

And in 2007 he definitely was a pure climber.

 

[greenedge]

What about Franco Pellizotti?

I would say he is considering he was 2nd in a Giro and won the KOM at the TDF but he would probably not be considered one now at his age.

 

[Eric8-A]

Mauricio Soler.

 

[robertocarlos]

I take it you're not familiar with the 2006 Giro d'Italia.

But he is not the same anymore he is still a good climber, but rarely puts any attacks nowadays. currently he and Evans ride tempo on the long climbs.

 

[orangerider]

Mauricio Soler.

The best in recent times, following Rasmussen, and more potential for great things in the future. Very sad what happened to Soler.

 

[Michele]

Mauricio Soler.

He would fit perfectly the "pure climber" as he couldnt downhill at all.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

What about Franco Pellizotti?

He's too all-round, IMO.

He didn't excel in high mountain stages when he was younger. He was a medium mountain type of rider, but doping helped him turn into a very good climber, I guess.

 

[will10]

He would fit perfectly the "pure climber" as he couldnt downhill at all.

Amazing for someone who couldn't descend at all to win a stage at the Tour with a profile like this?

 

[uphillstruggle]

A little off topic, but I don't see the point in having a KOTM competition as the winner is virtually never the best climber, which to me removes it's purpose. Perhaps a change/rename to most aggressive (which I think they already have in another comp) rider instead would be more fitting. In almost every TDF the best climber is the rider who wins the yellow jersey

The changes to the tour KOTM comp have made it better, favouring the guys who are at the sharp end of mountain stages and not those who last in the break most of the day. At least now you must be a very good climber to win whereas before you could just get in the break and take it. It means more of the nearly GC guys, such as Sanchez this year, attack on the mountains and make it a bit more interesting.

Oh and Evans won this years tour so the best climber does not always win.

 

[Eric8-A]

A little off topic, but I don't see the point in having a KOTM competition as the winner is virtually never the best climber, which to me removes it's purpose. Perhaps a change/rename to most aggressive (which I think they already have in another comp) rider instead would be more fitting. In almost every TDF the best climber is the rider who wins the yellow jersey; it's extremely rare to see otherwise and the same mostly goes for the other GT's. If you had 150kms of ITT and 70kms of TTT then a KOTM would serve a purpose, because there would be 5-10 riders thrown out of GC calculations who would really go for it.

I've had this same thought as well. I always thought that it would be better to judge the competition from the best time up the mountain. But that would probably be more complicated, and I remember someone telling me here that if it was like that, it would favor most likely the overall winner of the race, and something about it being something the spectator can get excited about besides the overall progress of a race, or something like that.

 

[movingtarget]

A pure climber used to be someone that was dominant in the mountains but could not ride TT's although some were not that bad at TT's. I can't see a resurgence of pure climbers because these days you have to be good at everything to win. The addition of race radios and making mountain stages shorter with less climbing has not helped pure climbers. We have been hearing about a comeback by the Colombians for years. Contador is not a pure climber neither was Armstrong, Evans and many other recent winners. Can't see it happening any time soon. As for the mountains jersey it should be won by the winner of the hardest mountain stages or the most consistent. If they changed the points structure it would be like that instead of someone building points on smaller climbs until they get so far ahead that they can afford to drop off the pace on harder stages. KOM should always be won by the best climber in the race on the hardest climbing stages.

 

[Michele]

Amazing for someone who couldn't descend at all to win a stage at the Tour with a profile like this?

Ask to his former team mates how scared they were to do a downhill with him even during trainings.

 

[the3verB]

The changes to the tour KOTM comp have made it better, favouring the guys who are at the sharp end of mountain stages and not those who last in the break most of the day. At least now you must be a very good climber to win whereas before you could just get in the break and take it. It means more of the nearly GC guys, such as Sanchez this year, attack on the mountains and make it a bit more interesting.

Oh and Evans won this years tour so the best climber does not always win.

its right, but last year i think Cadel was the best climber! Not following "the little boss" in the Izoard was a mistake. Without that, he would never have lost time on him!

 

[Captain_Cavman]

The "pure climber" is obsolete.

From 1991 only one "pure climber" won the Tour, Pantani.

People like Indurain, Armstrong, Contador, Evans and Ullrich were/are all-rounder.

And in the case of Contador is better climber than these "pure climbers". His only weakness is his team but it's not his fault... or yes?

You mean in 1998? When Pantani finished third in the ITT? Beating Ekimov and Hamilton to name but two?

 

[Forunculo]

You mean in 1998? When Pantani finished third in the ITT? Beating Ekimov and Hamilton to name but two?

I remember that TT and only 3 or 5 riders rode hard. There were too much time between many places in the GC.

If you can post the times of the TT you see Pantani lost many time to Ullrich.


Pantani the ITT, I'm open minded but... Can you told us about another good TT from him?

 

[jens_attacks]

pantani's good itts are not relevant because all of them came in the last days of a three week grand tour where is almost all about the recovery.so yeah he used to lose 5 minutes to zulle in the first one then almost beat tonkov in the last itt.plus there weren't so much time trial specialists back then who target only one stage in all three weeks.now there are quite a few

 

[uphillstruggle]

its right, but last year i think Cadel was the best climber! Not following "the little boss" in the Izoard was a mistake. Without that, he would never have lost time on him!

'the little boss' (I laugh every time I see that name, it's like calling AC 'little engine') was stronger than Evans no doubt. Evans struggled on the Alp d'Huez stage Andy easily stayed with AC, it was probably the wrong decision but nonetheless a good indicator of who was strongest.

 

[Duartista]

A pure climber used to be someone that was dominant in the mountains but could not ride TT's although some were not that bad at TT's. I can't see a resurgence of pure climbers because these days you have to be good at everything to win. The addition of race radios and making mountain stages shorter with less climbing has not helped pure climbers. We have been hearing about a comeback by the Colombians for years. Contador is not a pure climber neither was Armstrong, Evans and many other recent winners. Can't see it happening any time soon. As for the mountains jersey it should be won by the winner of the hardest mountain stages or the most consistent. If they changed the points structure it would be like that instead of someone building points on smaller climbs until they get so far ahead that they can afford to drop off the pace on harder stages. KOM should always be won by the best climber in the race on the hardest climbing stages.

It has always been like that, if you're referring to GTs. In fact, climbers have more of a chance to win GTs these days due to the reduction in TT kms. Herrera, for example, lost huge chunks of time to Roche in the TTs of the '87 TDF, I believe adding up to more than his overall GC deficit. This is why it made sense for him to focus on KOM. If TDFs went back to having 100 + km of time trialing, maybe you would see riders like the Schlecks, Vandenbroek etc focusing on stage wins and KOM.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

I remember that TT and only 3 or 5 riders rode hard. There were too much time between many places in the GC.

If you can post the times of the TT you see Pantani lost many time to Ullrich.


Pantani the ITT, I'm open minded but... Can you told us about another good TT from him?

1998 Giro stage 21, 3rd.

All I'm saying is that in order to win GTs, Pantani relied on top three ITT results in the third week (and we all know how he got them), not 'pure climbing'.

 

[uphillstruggle]

1998 Giro stage 21, 3rd.

All I'm saying is that in order to win GTs, Pantani relied on top three ITT results in the third week (and we all know how he got them), not 'pure climbing'.

So does the question end up being how poor at time trialling does a climber have to be considered a pure climber?

Pantani and the schlecks count as pure climbers for me simply for the fact that all they only win race on climbs and are relatively poor at everything else.

 

[Altitude]

The changes to the tour KOTM comp have made it better, favouring the guys who are at the sharp end of mountain stages and not those who last in the break most of the day. At least now you must be a very good climber to win whereas before you could just get in the break and take it. It means more of the nearly GC guys, such as Sanchez this year, attack on the mountains and make it a bit more interesting.

Oh and Evans won this years tour so the best climber does not always win.

2005 - Rasmussen
2006 - Rasmussen
2007 - Soler
2008 - Kohl
2009 - Pellizotti
2011 - Sanchez

Virenque a bunch of times before that. All were among the very best climbers in the world at the time. The only real fluke in recent Tours was 2010 when Charteau won it. Everyone always says the KOM is a joke but clearly it does well in rewarding the top climbers most of the time.

 

[El Pistolero]

2005 - Rasmussen
2006 - Rasmussen
2007 - Soler
2008 - Kohl
2009 - Pellizotti
2011 - Sanchez

Virenque a bunch of times before that. All were among the very best climbers in the world at the time. The only real fluke in recent Tours was 2010 when Charteau won it. Everyone always says the KOM is a joke but clearly it does well in rewarding the top climbers most of the time.

Those winners were never the best climbers, that's why it's a joke. Also, it's never really a competition because not a lot of people care about it. Rasmussen battled who for his jersey wins? No one.

 

[uphillstruggle]

2005 - Rasmussen
2006 - Rasmussen
2007 - Soler
2008 - Kohl
2009 - Pellizotti
2011 - Sanchez

Virenque a bunch of times before that. All were among the very best climbers in the world at the time. The only real fluke in recent Tours was 2010 when Charteau won it. Everyone always says the KOM is a joke but clearly it does well in rewarding the top climbers most of the time.

I agree that its generally a very good climber who wins it but the new points system does make it harder for a breakaway rider to win it. You basically have to be up there on the last climb of the day on the majority of mountain stages to win it. The problem maybe that the winner of the yellow jersey also wins the polka dot. I would bet my house; well my garage anyway that AC wins it next year.