The time of the new "pure Climber" resurgence

[Forunculo]

Not trolling but Khol and Pellizoti are clinic stuff.

I like waht the Tour did last year.

A breakaway worth a half than a victory

 

[the3verB]

Those winners were never the best climbers, that's why it's a joke. Also, it's never really a competition because not a lot of people care about it. Rasmussen battled who for his jersey wins? No one.

in 2006, Rasmussen was the best climber.
In 2007 there was a real fight between Rasmussen (the best climber of this Tour) and Sloer (3th or 4th best climber of this Tour)

 

[uphillstruggle]

In 2007 there was a real fight between Rasmussen (the best climber of this Tour) and Sloer (3th or 4th best climber of this Tour)

But they weren't fighting each other for the climbers jersey per se. Let's face it Soler wouldn't have won if Rasmussen had cared about the polka dot. He was dealing with that pesky Contador at the time.

 

[the3verB]

But they weren't fighting each other for the climbers jersey per se. Let's face it Soler wouldn't have won if Rasmussen had cared about the polka dot. He was dealing with that pesky Contador at the time.

I agree. Rasmussen main goal was yellow

 

[Altitude]

Not trolling but Khol and Pellizoti are clinic stuff.

I like waht the Tour did last year.

A breakaway worth a half than a victory

Why just Kohl and Pellizotti? They're all clinic stuff

 

[gilbertador]

Pure climbers for me are climbers with high acceleration, little upper body bulk and a riding style with a reasonable amount of time spent out of the saddle and large accelerations...
That means:
Contador
Shleck x 2
Anton
Rujano
Pozzovivo
Rodriguez

On the other hand riders like Basso and Evans although excellent climber and superior to most of the above are not pure climber as they have a diesel style with little acceleration and rarely leave the saddle

 

[El Pistolero]

Pure climbers for me are climbers with high acceleration, little upper body bulk and a riding style with a reasonable amount of time spent out of the saddle and large accelerations...
That means:
Contador
Shleck x 2
Anton
Rujano
Pozzovivo
Rodriguez

On the other hand riders like Basso and Evans although excellent climber and superior to most of the above are not pure climber as they have a diesel style with little acceleration and rarely leave the saddle

Frank Schleck is not a pure climber. He used to be a classics guy first and has now become one of the best climbers all of a sudden. His brother was a real climber before Frank even turned into one!

 

[movingtarget]

'the little boss' (I laugh every time I see that name, it's like calling AC 'little engine') was stronger than Evans no doubt. Evans struggled on the Alp d'Huez stage Andy easily stayed with AC, it was probably the wrong decision but nonetheless a good indicator of who was strongest.

Yes Evans was so weak on the Alpe stage that he attacked Schleck twice on the final climb and Schleck showed how tactically inept he is by riding with Contador before the final climb. At the end of the stage Schleck looked dead on the bike after crossing the line. Sayonara Tour De France. There is no doubt that the strongest rider won the TDF.

 

[movingtarget]

It has always been like that, if you're referring to GTs. In fact, climbers have more of a chance to win GTs these days due to the reduction in TT kms. Herrera, for example, lost huge chunks of time to Roche in the TTs of the '87 TDF, I believe adding up to more than his overall GC deficit. This is why it made sense for him to focus on KOM. If TDFs went back to having 100 + km of time trialing, maybe you would see riders like the Schlecks, Vandenbroek etc focusing on stage wins and KOM.

Well I could not see this year's TDF re time trial being a benefit to pure climbers could you ? Even though it is not 100 km's worth. The reduced length of the mountain stages is also a factor. Possibly the only exception to the the all rounder rule for winning GT's that I can think of is maybe Lucien Van-Impe winning the TDF in the seventies but I think some good riders were injured and did not start. Can't remember how well Lucien did in the time trials. Sean Kelly won the Vuelta but he was more than just a sprinter. Simoni with his Giro wins and also Cunego: and Heras with his Vuelta wins are other exceptions to the rule. None of them could time trial much. Fuentes and Bahamontes further back, were pure climbers but I think Fuentes could ride a decent TT.

 

[cineteq]

Frank Schleck is not a pure climber.

Of course he is now. He's been 2nd 3 times the last 3 TdFs....why? because he can't TT...thus he's a pure climber.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Of course he is now. He's been 2nd 3 times the last 3 TdFs....why? because he can't TT...thus he's a pure climber.

Thats Andy not Frank.

 

[gustienordic]

Francisco Mancebo would be a pure climber but today Rodriguez would be.

To define a pure climber for me is one that specializes in climbing and climbing alone.

Like Contador is the best climber but really he is an all-rounder as he is capable of putting in an excellent TT as well while Rodriguez just specializes in climbing alone as his time trialling really lets him down with his GC hopes and thats what ultimately costs him.

Contador can out climb all of the "pure climbers" Rujano, JRod, etc... there is no one who can stick with him usually... maybe for one day, but for 2 or 3 in a row? nope. JRod maybe can get him in a steep uphill sprint, but on a huge MTF, Contador will win. This is what I have a problem with. I want someone to be able to outclimb Contador to make the races more interesting. If JRod could drop Contador on an MTF it would make an awesome GT showdown. It would make the attacks much crazier.

Last pure climber to win the Tdf? Sastre.

 

[uphillstruggle]

There is no doubt that the strongest rider won the TDF.

The strongest rider is not always the strongest climber.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Of course he is now. He's been 2nd 3 times the last 3 TdFs....why? because he can't TT...thus he's a pure climber.

Frank Schleck is not a pure climber because he excels on hilly courses. His TTs have improved, by the way. He was a decent TTer last year.

 

[ultimobici]

I don't think the pure climber exists in the same way today. The likes of Pantani, Millar, Van Impe & Herrera have for all intents and purposed been "bred" out of the sport.

The introduction of radios has allowed much tighter controls on breaks, not only once they've been formed but sometimes in advance of them happening. Whereas before it was down to the rider on the road to notice what was happening around them, now they have the benefit of an extra set of eyes watching live coverage and crucially being able to communicate information almost instantly. As a result moves like Pantani's on the Galibier in 98 could have been dealt with differently.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't think the pure climber exists in the same way today. The likes of Pantani, Millar, Van Impe & Herrera have for all intents and purposed been "bred" out of the sport.

The introduction of radios has allowed much tighter controls on breaks, not only once they've been formed but sometimes in advance of them happening. Whereas before it was down to the rider on the road to notice what was happening around them, now they have the benefit of an extra set of eyes watching live coverage and crucially being able to communicate information almost instantly. As a result moves like Pantani's on the Galibier in 98 could have been dealt with differently.

Yeah i agree. The thinking rider is almost gone from the sport ,with a few exceptions, as they rely too much on tvs in the team cars.

 

[jens_attacks]

I don't think the pure climber exists in the same way today. The likes of Pantani, Millar, Van Impe & Herrera have for all intents and purposed been "bred" out of the sport.

The introduction of radios has allowed much tighter controls on breaks, not only once they've been formed but sometimes in advance of them happening. Whereas before it was down to the rider on the road to notice what was happening around them, now they have the benefit of an extra set of eyes watching live coverage and crucially being able to communicate information almost instantly. As a result moves like Pantani's on the Galibier in 98 could have been dealt with differently.

so in 1998 there were no radios?
when soler attacked the shiit out of them day after day there were no radios?when contador and andy attacked there were no radios?jeebus i hope they won't get rid of them just because of these people who think radios destroy the sport or something.defending tactics exist not because of the radios they exist because there are riders who won't attack anyway,no balls.

 

[ultimobici]

I just looked back at the heyday of the Colombians, Herrera in particular.

in 84 Herrera was way down in 4th on the KOM classification with 108 points to Millar's 284, Fignon's 212 & Arroyo's 140. He was also 58'30" down on Fignon on GC almost half an hour behind Arroyo. But he was still essentially an amateur then.
In 85 he swept the Mountains competition with 440 to Delgado's 274 and Millar's 270. He also improved to 7th at 12'53" on GC. This was despite 232.3km of TTs, 36km more than the previous year!
86 saw him drop down to 22nd at 56' and come second in the KOM with 270 to Hinault's 351. TT distance that year was 180.1km.

Compared to the modern Tours Herrera had to contend with much more TT distance. 2011 was a paltry 65.5km, 2010 was 60.9km and 2009 was 95km. Only 2009 had a TTT, whereas the 84-86 Tours all had long TTT's where the likes of Herrera lost minutes.

With short TT stages and the absence of a TTT it is possible for a climber to limit their losses to the extent that they are still a threat. Millar & Herrera lost a lot of time in the individual & team tests. As such they could be allowed a little more slack on the climbs as they were no threat.

 

[CatDogQQ]

Anton, Rujano, Dan Martin, Vanendert

 

[El Pistolero]

Anton, Rujano, Dan Martin, Vanendert

Vanendert has a good descend in him, as we saw at the Tourmalet this year at the Tour where he followed Samuel Sanchez. He's also great on the hills.

For me a pure climber is someone who excells in the mountains, but isn't a particulary good time trialist, descender and doesn't care all that much about one day races. I consider Carlos Sastre to be a pure climber. Rujano and Anton also fit that bill. I wouldn't call Dan Martin a pure climber. He has a great sprint and is also pretty good in one day races. And let's be honest, his climbing skills aren't all that spectacular. Too bad he has a pollen allergy or he would have showed something by now in the Ardennes.

 

[uphillstruggle]

For me a pure climber is someone who excells in the mountains, but isn't a particulary good time trialist, descender and doesn't care all that much about one day races. I consider Carlos Sastre to be a pure climber. Rujano and Anton also fit that bill.

Anton is good on hills, very punchy climber really and he goes for one day races. I would agree that he is a pure climber though.

 

[cineteq]

Any doubts he's a pure climber?

 

[The Hitch]

Compared to the modern Tours Herrera had to contend with much more TT distance. 2011 was a paltry 65.5km, 2010 was 60.9km and 2009 was 95km. Only 2009 had a TTT, whereas the 84-86 Tours all had long TTT's where the likes of Herrera lost minutes.
.

2011 had a ttt as well. From your list only 2010 didn't.

With short TT stages and the absence of a TTT it is possible for a climber to limit their losses to the extent that they are still a threat.

Well tts can help pure climbers get headstarts on far better riders. EG Frank Schleck taking a minute on Contador in 2011 ttt or 2 minutes on Cadel in 2009.

Theres something very wrong there is all I know.

 

[El Pistolero]

Anton is good on hills, very punchy climber really and he goes for one day races. I would agree that he is a pure climber though.

I never said he wasn't good, I said he doesn't care all that much for one day races. Flèche Wallonne is the only one day race I've seen him on TV. He probably has done relatively well in LBL before, but didn't clock up any camera time.

 

[Sofía_]

in my book a pure climber is a rider who is good in the long climbs + is below average at time trials and punchy hill climbs