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Dr. Maserati
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- Jun 19, 2009
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Then why didn't you cite where you took the quotes and attribute them to the correct people?Echoes said:
You realise that Dr. Decourt helped invent the amphetimine Ortedrine - he is hardly giving an unbiased opinion.
Here is an alternative piece:
There were a combination of factors in Simpsons death but there is no doubt of the fact he was taking amphetimines which undoubtly was a major contributor.
- Aug 9, 2010
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If you put an infinite number of monekys in a room with a typewriter they might end up writing Hamlet, but there's a much greater chance of them producing the OP.....
Are you familiar with the example of Jean Mallejac?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Mall%C3%A9jac - very similar case, Ventoux, extreme heat and drugs (presumably amphetamines). Luckily he survived (thanks to Dr Dumas).
Are you also familiar with Simpson's well-known quote about amphetamines? - "If it takes 10 [pills] to kill you, I'll take 9”.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue, but I recommend you read William Fotheringham's book - Put Me Back On My Bike.
FWIW I really don't understand the hero worship of Simpson either. There was much to admire, but he was also a doper. People write that off too conveniently.
Are you familiar with the example of Jean Mallejac?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Mall%C3%A9jac - very similar case, Ventoux, extreme heat and drugs (presumably amphetamines). Luckily he survived (thanks to Dr Dumas).
Are you also familiar with Simpson's well-known quote about amphetamines? - "If it takes 10 [pills] to kill you, I'll take 9”.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue, but I recommend you read William Fotheringham's book - Put Me Back On My Bike.
FWIW I really don't understand the hero worship of Simpson either. There was much to admire, but he was also a doper. People write that off too conveniently.
Chuffy said:
And ultimately he was a good but limited rider - and this limited ability was one of the reasons he died. He tried to compensate through PEDs.
If he was clean and got a heart attack trying to compete with other cheaters, then that's something to celebrate.
Limited rider? lol
This thread was meant to be on the PRR section because I did not want to strictly talk about his death (yeah I'm naive) but the mods moved it here.
I've summed his palmares up. What was the point? Do you only watch cycling in July? A guy who won 5 of the biggest classics (some of them in style !) and the biggest one week stage race of the calendar in 6.5 years is not considered a limited rider. Otherwise you know nothing of cycling history.
Compensate with dope? LOL Hey this is amphetamine, not EPO ! Impossible to compensate anything with amphetamine.
Do I again have to remind you the deal in July 1967? Simpson was negotiating a fruitful contract with the Salvarani because - as Gimondi argued - he could be a great team mate of his for the classics but the deal was to finish the Tour de France, says Aimar. I, now, even have the info (which needs verification, though) that Simpson was negotiating with the Salvarani manager during the rest day and the latter expected a top10 rank, for him to get the contract.
I didn't cite my sources? Can't you read?
I said my sources were Mes quatre vérités by Raphaël Geminiani and a tv programme on Belgian channel Canvas. It was called Tom Simpson - Een monument op de Ventoux with interviews of Felice Gimondi, Jan Janssen, Lucien Aimar, Colin Lewis, Barry Hoban, Gaston Plaud (former team manager) and Tom's widow and daughters.
And I can also add Tom Simpson - un champion dans la tourmente by Jean-Paul Ollivier. All the same.
And then what? I'm an Anglo?
I've always thought I was a Belgian. Here on the continent, I have never EVER seen Simpson depicted as a hero, a martyr, a saint or whatever. Since I was a child, this story had always been related to dope and alcohol, here on the continent.
Having an alternative version is sort of refreshing for me. I hate it when things are too obvious. Life is complexed, like it or not.
Jan Janssen had a famous cardiac collapse during the 1970 Paris-Tours. Linked with dope?
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/jul98/jul31a.shtml
This thread was meant to be on the PRR section because I did not want to strictly talk about his death (yeah I'm naive) but the mods moved it here.
I've summed his palmares up. What was the point? Do you only watch cycling in July? A guy who won 5 of the biggest classics (some of them in style !) and the biggest one week stage race of the calendar in 6.5 years is not considered a limited rider. Otherwise you know nothing of cycling history.
Compensate with dope? LOL Hey this is amphetamine, not EPO ! Impossible to compensate anything with amphetamine.
Do I again have to remind you the deal in July 1967? Simpson was negotiating a fruitful contract with the Salvarani because - as Gimondi argued - he could be a great team mate of his for the classics but the deal was to finish the Tour de France, says Aimar. I, now, even have the info (which needs verification, though) that Simpson was negotiating with the Salvarani manager during the rest day and the latter expected a top10 rank, for him to get the contract.
I didn't cite my sources? Can't you read?
I said my sources were Mes quatre vérités by Raphaël Geminiani and a tv programme on Belgian channel Canvas. It was called Tom Simpson - Een monument op de Ventoux with interviews of Felice Gimondi, Jan Janssen, Lucien Aimar, Colin Lewis, Barry Hoban, Gaston Plaud (former team manager) and Tom's widow and daughters.
And I can also add Tom Simpson - un champion dans la tourmente by Jean-Paul Ollivier. All the same.
And then what? I'm an Anglo?
I've always thought I was a Belgian. Here on the continent, I have never EVER seen Simpson depicted as a hero, a martyr, a saint or whatever. Since I was a child, this story had always been related to dope and alcohol, here on the continent.Having an alternative version is sort of refreshing for me. I hate it when things are too obvious. Life is complexed, like it or not.
Jan Janssen had a famous cardiac collapse during the 1970 Paris-Tours. Linked with dope?
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/jul98/jul31a.shtml
Echoes said:Limited rider? lol
This thread was meant to be on the PRR section because I did not want to strictly talk about his death (yeah I'm naive) but the mods moved it here.
I've summed his palmares up. What was the point? Do you only watch cycling in July? A guy who won 5 of the biggest classics (some of them in style !) and the biggest one week stage race of the calendar in 6.5 years is not considered a limited rider. Otherwise you know nothing of cycling history.
Compensate with dope? LOL Hey this is amphetamine, not EPO ! Impossible to compensate anything with amphetamine.
Do I again have to remind you the deal in July 1967? Simpson was negotiating a fruitful contract with the Salvarani because - as Gimondi argued - he could be a great team mate of his for the classics but the deal was to finish the Tour de France, says Aimar. I, now, even have the info (which needs verification, though) that Simpson was negotiating with the Salvarani manager during the rest day and the latter expected a top10 rank, for him to get the contract.
I didn't cite my sources? Can't you read?
I said my sources were Mes quatre vérités by Raphaël Geminiani and a tv programme on Belgian channel Canvas. It was called Tom Simpson - Een monument op de Ventoux with interviews of Felice Gimondi, Jan Janssen, Lucien Aimar, Colin Lewis, Barry Hoban, Gaston Plaud (former team manager) and Tom's widow and daughters.
And I can also add Tom Simpson - un champion dans la tourmente by Jean-Paul Ollivier. All the same.
And then what? I'm an Anglo?
Having an alternative version is sort of refreshing for me. I hate it when things are too obvious. Life is complexed, like it or not.
Jan Janssen had a famous cardiac collapse during the 1970 Paris-Tours. Linked with dope?
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/jul98/jul31a.shtml
When it came to Grand Tours he was a very limited rider absolutely - and this was what killed him, He couldn't accept his defiencies in same. He couldn't accept that he didn't have the capacity for this type of race. So don't patronise me with the I only follow cycling in July tripe. I've followed the sport for 25 years, and I completely stand by the statement I made. And i would like to go further and say that the main reason he has gain this much popularity is due to the lack of English riders who rode the Tour, in comparison to other countries. There's an Anglophile bias which seems to turn a blind eye to his doping and glorifies him as a rider which though good, was limited in his abilities - otherwise he wouldn't have been on his own home made doping programme which the vast majority of riders at this time could not afford. Clear enough.
Note: Who said the only drug he was on were amphetamines?
I note the comments about anglophile/anglo bias, however I don't think it's as clear as that. There may be such a bias now, but not so back in the 70s. I'm British and started cycling in the north-west in the mid 70s. Members of my club had known Simpson, one had raced with him in Belgian, and another was best mates with one of the 1967 British Tour de France team who came from down the road. I don't remember any of them being at all impressed by what Simpson had done. It's posisble that what I was picking up on was a bit of a regional bias against him, and a feeling that he was maybe a little too flash. My British `hero' at the time was Barry Hoban, and certainly not Simpson.
- Aug 9, 2010
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Have you read Roule Brittania by William Fotheringham? It's a history of British riders in the TdF but covers Simpson et al in some detail - well worth a read if you haven't already. My impression was that Simpson's legacy and popularity lay in the fact that he was the first Brit to go to the continent and really make a success of it. He certainly was flash though and I can see that rankling with fellow pros - especially if there was a sense that they were merely following in his wake.Hawkwood said:
Would it be fair to say that to British fans of a certain age, his popularity is of a similar order and type to that of He Who We Do Not Name amongst a generation of American fans? That is to say, hugely popular to the extent that his failings (doping) are glossed over or downplayed?
Chuffy said:
I haven't read the Fotheringham book yet, but it's on my shopping list. I did read Simpson's own book back in the 70s and found it an interesting read. I think that certainly back in the 70s Simpson divided people, and many of the cyclists I knew had no respect for him. One cycle shop owner I knew was a very mild mannered man, the only time I saw hm heated was when someone asked him about Simpson, to him he was simply a cheat. From a few interviews I've heard it sounds as if Simpson didn't have much respect for other British riders, and the feeling was perhaps reciprocated.
- Mar 2, 2009
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Hi all,
William Fotheringham, author of Put Me Back On My Bike emailed in and had this to say on the article. You can follow William on Twitter, right here http://twitter.com/#!/willfoth
"With reference to “The Tom Simpson True Story” there are some points that need some clarification and as the author of the only fully researched biography of Simpson on the market, I can perhaps claim to speak on the issues surrounding Simpson’s death with a degree of authority.
The race facts in the initial piece show that Simpson was a hugely talented, charismatic and motivated cyclist whose physical make-up meant he was best suited to one-day Classic racing, something that only has a tangential relation to his death. It does, however, have some importance as to how we view him now.
As for the “truth” of what happened on July 13, 1967, the correspondent is inaccurate in certain areas. I have not seen any account from Colin Lewis that mentions “little sips” of brandy. The distance between the point where Simpson fell first and where he died appears to be 420 yards, according to a Daily Mail reporter who visited the mountain soon after Simpson’s death. Fans had placed piles of stones on the roadside marking the two points. Again, this is the most accurate report I have seen.
These are minor points. Most importantly, the correspondent states “What killed Simpson were the bad treatment that he received after the collapse.” It is true that the race doctor, Pierre Dumas, was not on the spot immediately, but with the field strung out as it was if Dumas had been right there within seconds that would have been exceptionally lucky. That is not the issue, however.
The substance of what the correspondent writes about Simpson’s treatment is found in a newspaper article written soon after his death by Dr Philippe Decourt which has been widely quoted. The purpose of the article appears to have been to blame Dr Dumas for Simpson’s death, although Decourt would appear to have an interest in blaming the doctor and exonerating the amphetamines, as he claimed to have invented the amphetamine Ortedrine.
The “facts” surrounding Simpson’s treatment are open to interpretation, but it’s worth looking at the alternative view, which is that Simpson died of heart failure due to heat exhaustion/heat stroke. This is not, it should be noted, a classic heart attack, but a condition in which the heart beats faster and faster as the body’s thermal regulation systems break down.
The conditions point to heat stroke: high air temperature - the report of a thermometer bursting at Chalet Renard at 54 degrees has not been confirmed, but it would have been in the 40s at least; dehydration – common in cyclists at the time due to the ban on taking bottles from team cars, but extreme in Simpson – his mechanic Harry Hall told me that Simpson’s skin was dry; use of amphetamines, which increases core body temperature, affects the body’s ability to regulate temperature, and will cause the mind to “over-ride” warning symptoms from the body.
Several of the symptoms shown by Simpson as he rode up the Ventoux were consistent with hyperthermia or heat stroke: confusion (observed by Lucien Aimar), nausea (Colin Lewis), dry skin (Harry Hall). The zig-zagging filmed by Harry Hall before Simpson keeled over is consistent as well, as co-ordination is lost in extreme cases of tachycardia, where the heart beats more rapidly and less efficiently than normal. Death takes place in two or three minutes after the heart enters a final phase: ventricular fibrillation, where the heart is moving but blood is not flowing around the body.
The chances are that Simpson was dead when Dumas got to him. There was a two to three minute window when he might perhaps have been saved after his final collapse, but only if he had fallen off in front of a hospital with an intensive care unit. Simpson was kept still for some time, so that point is irrelevant. Doctors I consulted during the writing of Put Me Back indicated that the adrenalin injection would have been of dubious value. As for keeping head higher than heart, that is only of relevance if the heart is working. The chances are that Simpson’s heart had stopped before the doctor got there. Dumas noted that there was no increase in blood pressure as he applied cardiac massage.
The question is important because of the attempts that have been made ever since Simpson’s death to muddy the waters. Raphael Geminiani and Jacques Anquetil both stated that Simpson’s death was not due to amphetamine use, without backing up their statements.
The life insurance story has been going the rounds for some time, and it was impossible to verify one way or the other in the writing of Put Me Back on my Bike. The argument is not whether Simpson died from amphetamine use as that cannot be verified: death from heat stroke can occur without amphetamines being used. However, the chances that the drug contributed to his death is strong. His use of amphetamines was well documented, according to numerous observers (Lewis, Jean Bobet, Gaston Plaud, Vin Denson, Brian Robinson, Alan Ramsbottom, Pierre Nedelec). Lewis, Bobet, Nedelec and Plaud all state he used large quantities of the drug. Lewis saw him buying the drug; Bobet saw the tablets on his tongue; the autopsy found amphetamines and alcohol in his body. Amphetamine would have contributed strongly to the condition that is most likely to have caused him to die but it was probably not the sole cause of death.
Where the correspondent is right is that Simpson should not be remembered solely for his tragic death. He took drugs but he did so at a very different point in the history of sport from the point at which we are now judging him. The practice had been illegal in France for just over two years when he died and it was unclear whether controls would actually be made to stick. Drug taking is not inconsistent with being a charismatic, talented, motivated and highly likeable cyclist – just ask David Millar. "
William Fotheringham, author of Put Me Back On My Bike emailed in and had this to say on the article. You can follow William on Twitter, right here http://twitter.com/#!/willfoth
"With reference to “The Tom Simpson True Story” there are some points that need some clarification and as the author of the only fully researched biography of Simpson on the market, I can perhaps claim to speak on the issues surrounding Simpson’s death with a degree of authority.
The race facts in the initial piece show that Simpson was a hugely talented, charismatic and motivated cyclist whose physical make-up meant he was best suited to one-day Classic racing, something that only has a tangential relation to his death. It does, however, have some importance as to how we view him now.
As for the “truth” of what happened on July 13, 1967, the correspondent is inaccurate in certain areas. I have not seen any account from Colin Lewis that mentions “little sips” of brandy. The distance between the point where Simpson fell first and where he died appears to be 420 yards, according to a Daily Mail reporter who visited the mountain soon after Simpson’s death. Fans had placed piles of stones on the roadside marking the two points. Again, this is the most accurate report I have seen.
These are minor points. Most importantly, the correspondent states “What killed Simpson were the bad treatment that he received after the collapse.” It is true that the race doctor, Pierre Dumas, was not on the spot immediately, but with the field strung out as it was if Dumas had been right there within seconds that would have been exceptionally lucky. That is not the issue, however.
The substance of what the correspondent writes about Simpson’s treatment is found in a newspaper article written soon after his death by Dr Philippe Decourt which has been widely quoted. The purpose of the article appears to have been to blame Dr Dumas for Simpson’s death, although Decourt would appear to have an interest in blaming the doctor and exonerating the amphetamines, as he claimed to have invented the amphetamine Ortedrine.
The “facts” surrounding Simpson’s treatment are open to interpretation, but it’s worth looking at the alternative view, which is that Simpson died of heart failure due to heat exhaustion/heat stroke. This is not, it should be noted, a classic heart attack, but a condition in which the heart beats faster and faster as the body’s thermal regulation systems break down.
The conditions point to heat stroke: high air temperature - the report of a thermometer bursting at Chalet Renard at 54 degrees has not been confirmed, but it would have been in the 40s at least; dehydration – common in cyclists at the time due to the ban on taking bottles from team cars, but extreme in Simpson – his mechanic Harry Hall told me that Simpson’s skin was dry; use of amphetamines, which increases core body temperature, affects the body’s ability to regulate temperature, and will cause the mind to “over-ride” warning symptoms from the body.
Several of the symptoms shown by Simpson as he rode up the Ventoux were consistent with hyperthermia or heat stroke: confusion (observed by Lucien Aimar), nausea (Colin Lewis), dry skin (Harry Hall). The zig-zagging filmed by Harry Hall before Simpson keeled over is consistent as well, as co-ordination is lost in extreme cases of tachycardia, where the heart beats more rapidly and less efficiently than normal. Death takes place in two or three minutes after the heart enters a final phase: ventricular fibrillation, where the heart is moving but blood is not flowing around the body.
The chances are that Simpson was dead when Dumas got to him. There was a two to three minute window when he might perhaps have been saved after his final collapse, but only if he had fallen off in front of a hospital with an intensive care unit. Simpson was kept still for some time, so that point is irrelevant. Doctors I consulted during the writing of Put Me Back indicated that the adrenalin injection would have been of dubious value. As for keeping head higher than heart, that is only of relevance if the heart is working. The chances are that Simpson’s heart had stopped before the doctor got there. Dumas noted that there was no increase in blood pressure as he applied cardiac massage.
The question is important because of the attempts that have been made ever since Simpson’s death to muddy the waters. Raphael Geminiani and Jacques Anquetil both stated that Simpson’s death was not due to amphetamine use, without backing up their statements.
The life insurance story has been going the rounds for some time, and it was impossible to verify one way or the other in the writing of Put Me Back on my Bike. The argument is not whether Simpson died from amphetamine use as that cannot be verified: death from heat stroke can occur without amphetamines being used. However, the chances that the drug contributed to his death is strong. His use of amphetamines was well documented, according to numerous observers (Lewis, Jean Bobet, Gaston Plaud, Vin Denson, Brian Robinson, Alan Ramsbottom, Pierre Nedelec). Lewis, Bobet, Nedelec and Plaud all state he used large quantities of the drug. Lewis saw him buying the drug; Bobet saw the tablets on his tongue; the autopsy found amphetamines and alcohol in his body. Amphetamine would have contributed strongly to the condition that is most likely to have caused him to die but it was probably not the sole cause of death.
Where the correspondent is right is that Simpson should not be remembered solely for his tragic death. He took drugs but he did so at a very different point in the history of sport from the point at which we are now judging him. The practice had been illegal in France for just over two years when he died and it was unclear whether controls would actually be made to stick. Drug taking is not inconsistent with being a charismatic, talented, motivated and highly likeable cyclist – just ask David Millar. "
Daniel Benson said:
This stuff is funny - hugely talented etc etc....the guy travelled with two cases, one for kit, the other for...........he took strychnine for God sake. How do we know the genuine talent of the guy when he spent so much money and took so much drugs? I feel like banging my head off a brick wall here. This is crazy stuff.
One thing we know about Millar is what he is capable of clean....can we say the same of Simpson?
- Nov 30, 2010
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Chuffy said:
I'm not sure that I direct comparison can be made to HWWDNN.
Simpson was massively popular, both in Europe and, amazingly, in the UK where cycling has never been much covered by the press apart from the TdF. And yet Simpson won the British Sports Personality of the Year in 1965 ahead of the great Jim Clark. (within three years both would be dead at the wheel, a sobering thought).
There are probably a myriad of reasons but somehow his popularity far outweighed his achievements. And that's not to say that his achievements weren't impressive.
And then he died. Blame it on the French, blame it on the brandy, blame it on Simpson's refusal to be beaten.
But really everyone knew what had happened. So in typical British fashion, the general public just pretended he hadn't existed. The cycling community still paid tribute and erected a statue etc, but it's not until much more recently that journalists and writers have been able to bring his story to a wider audience.
As so often happens, with the passing of time, people and careers get re-evaluated and put into context. So you get this second wave of appreciation, almost as if to make up for previously being unsympathetic to the man's memory.
Hello,
I must say I didn't expect a reaction coming from the author of Tom Simpson's main biography.
But I'm open to criticism and I do accept the counter-arguments about the treatments given to him on the mountain ! I have search for some and never found counter-arguments for this. So, fine.
English is not my mother tongue. In the TV programme "Tom Simpson: een monument op de Ventoux", it was hard for me to understand what Colin Lewis said but I have it on a video tape and I could read the Dutch subtitles of his comments:
"Al z'n drank die dag heb ik 'm gegeven. Na m'n strooptocht in 'n café had ik zes flesjes op m'n rug. Ik wist niet wat er in m'n achterzakken zat. Ik haalde die dingen uit m'n trui of m'n achterzak. En toen zag ik pas wat ik bij me had. Het was een fles cognac. Hij pakte ze af en zei: M'n darmen spelen op, ik neem 'n slok. Hij gooide ze weg. Hij was nog lucide genoeg en gooide ze weg voor anderen ervan dronken."
Colin Lewis said he handed to him the dranks that he took in a pub. He had 6 bottles on his back and didn't know what he had in his rear pocket. He took what he had and only then he could realize it was a bottle of Cognac. Simpson took it. 'een slok' in Dutch means 'a sip' or 'a mouthful' and I think Lewis' word was 'a drop'. But then he threw it away and lucid enough to do it before others drank from it.
His use of amphetamines has never been disputed here, only it being the main contributor to his death.
I do believe that his wins in some of the hardest classics in the cycling calendar made him one of the greatest champions of his time, regardless. Doping in his days did not transform a monkey into a race horse, anyway, unlike today.
And I'm still wondering why there's never been much comments on what happened before. As I (still based on the TV programme) and others said on these boards, he'd been sick for a couple of days before (diarrhea) after drinking water from a brook. He no longer ate but instead got nutrient through intravenous drips. Janssen and Gimondi already realized during the Alps that things went wrong with him and that he should have retired. But the deal with the Salvarani manager was to finish.
Why hasn't this been insisted upon?
I must say I didn't expect a reaction coming from the author of Tom Simpson's main biography.
But I'm open to criticism and I do accept the counter-arguments about the treatments given to him on the mountain ! I have search for some and never found counter-arguments for this. So, fine.
English is not my mother tongue. In the TV programme "Tom Simpson: een monument op de Ventoux", it was hard for me to understand what Colin Lewis said but I have it on a video tape and I could read the Dutch subtitles of his comments:
"Al z'n drank die dag heb ik 'm gegeven. Na m'n strooptocht in 'n café had ik zes flesjes op m'n rug. Ik wist niet wat er in m'n achterzakken zat. Ik haalde die dingen uit m'n trui of m'n achterzak. En toen zag ik pas wat ik bij me had. Het was een fles cognac. Hij pakte ze af en zei: M'n darmen spelen op, ik neem 'n slok. Hij gooide ze weg. Hij was nog lucide genoeg en gooide ze weg voor anderen ervan dronken."
Colin Lewis said he handed to him the dranks that he took in a pub. He had 6 bottles on his back and didn't know what he had in his rear pocket. He took what he had and only then he could realize it was a bottle of Cognac. Simpson took it. 'een slok' in Dutch means 'a sip' or 'a mouthful' and I think Lewis' word was 'a drop'. But then he threw it away and lucid enough to do it before others drank from it.
His use of amphetamines has never been disputed here, only it being the main contributor to his death.
I do believe that his wins in some of the hardest classics in the cycling calendar made him one of the greatest champions of his time, regardless. Doping in his days did not transform a monkey into a race horse, anyway, unlike today.
And I'm still wondering why there's never been much comments on what happened before. As I (still based on the TV programme) and others said on these boards, he'd been sick for a couple of days before (diarrhea) after drinking water from a brook. He no longer ate but instead got nutrient through intravenous drips. Janssen and Gimondi already realized during the Alps that things went wrong with him and that he should have retired. But the deal with the Salvarani manager was to finish.
Why hasn't this been insisted upon?
BotanyBay said:
Botany that only took four days for you to find!!
But yeah, what I said is exactly the same as what you said about Floyd's father in law, whereby you insinuated Floyd was at fault in some way for his death...if you think both situations are the same, you're worse than even I thought.
Susan Westemeyer
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