The Unofficial GC Standings (minus the TTT)

[saxe_coburg_gotha]

I think they should have 2 TTT each tour by then 2nd one the riders would probably be able to handle the bikes plus it is a team sport. Far to much emphasis on the indvidual places.
Brings back the yellow hats and throw away those silly helmets.

 

[Coach Hawk]

I think they should have 2 TTT each tour by then 2nd one the riders would probably be able to handle the bikes plus it is a team sport. Far to much emphasis on the indvidual places.
Brings back the yellow hats and throw away those silly helmets.

Actually that could be hysterical--have a second TTT, but have the top 20 riders get to "pick" their teammates ala playground rules!

Until this year, I was a fan of the TTT, but somehow it does seem to have put a damper on this years racing. But whatever they do, don't bring it back with the time loss limits--that was about the stupidest thing I'd ever seen in pro racing. Even the riders couldn't make sense of it, and if they knew upfront they weren't competitive they could just ride piano and save up for a later date. You end up with 5 teams racing and the rest doing the team parade; exciting!

 

[DavidT]

do remember that hell to the north year when i think it was boonens teammate was caught doping but boonen won after the guy pulled for like 35 k and drop everybody in the world that was chasing ! there is more then one way to skin a cat ! and boonen got his rock !

Do you remember the year Armstrong won the Tour with Hamilton, Vaughters, Andreu and Livingston pulling him?

 

[frizzlefry]

Simply pulling out the TTT times is not the entire equation. Yes, those numbers that result give you a different perspective, but in place of the TTT would be another stage. If its a mountain stage the numbers are not anywhere near the same. If its a flat stage, then maybe then numbers are the same. Just saying, you have to look at the entire equation. Alot of different factors in the entire situation.

 

[Cobber]

Simply pulling out the TTT times is not the entire equation. Yes, those numbers that result give you a different perspective, but in place of the TTT would be another stage. If its a mountain stage the numbers are not anywhere near the same. If its a flat stage, then maybe then numbers are the same. Just saying, you have to look at the entire equation. Alot of different factors in the entire situation.

Given that there have only been 2 mountain stages until this point, I think it's pretty safe to assume that if the TTT was pulled it would not have been replaced with a mountain stage.

 

[53x11 in DC]

Sure gives a different perspective.

Wow:
2 Christophe Le Mevel (Fra) Française des Jeux 0:00:29
3 Rinaldo Nocentini (Ita) AG2R La Mondiale 0:00:42

If some French teams could TT with the best, they would be competitive.

And Cadel still within two minutes and essentially the same time as Andy Schleck, despite the bad day at Verbier.

3 responses...

1. No way Le Mevel or Nocentini get the rope they were given by the peloton - see great point earlier in the thread about tactics emanating on a day-to-day basis. There would have been more attention paid (at least to Le Mevel.

2. Not only can't French teams seem to TTT (see the ditch-diving BBox team), but there is no INDIVIDUAL pro who can time trial well. Did you know that Jean-Christophe Peraud won the PRO TT championships in France? Do you know him? Know who he rides for? NOBODY - he's a 32-year-old free agent who kicked Chava and LeLay around the French countryside. Frickin embarrassing.

3. Cadel would not have figured into this Tour, even with the revised standings. I like the guy - he's gritty. But I think he's a little worn down right now.

As Bjarne said yesterday, "If the moon were made of cheese, we could eat it!"

 

[Parrot23]

As mentioned before these numbers aren't real. The standings prior to each stage determines which riders are let go and which riders the GC chased.

Yes, that's correct. Thanks (also to 53x11 for that).

Also 53x11: they indeed don't seem to be able to TT. Puzzling (maybe they are "too" clean, it's hard to say; maybe something else). Seems to be their achilles. They have some very good climbers, but no TT'ers.

On Cadel, isn't he riding stronger than Lance this Tour (except for the TTT), ie. faster in the initial TT and in BOTH mountain stages so far, I think? Stronger on 3 counts. Little worn down could apply to the older guy better maybe (certainly the clock so far shows that and Lance has never attacked, whereas Cadel has).

That said, you have to win the course that's set (including the TTT).

 

[benpounder]

This is not sour grapes Johhny C, it's called wanting an even contest with the best riders winning.

the best rider is winning, and with two difficult mountain stages, an ITT, and the sprint up Ventoux still to come, the better riders will continue to filter to the top.

I've mentioned this before - during Armstrong's 7 victories, there were 6 TTT's, and only three which USPostal/Disco won. Blaming the TTT for one's favorite riders poor performance is crying over spilt milk. Lotto knew coming in that there was a team time trial, and knew that several teams would be strong. Yet they did not either prepare their team for that race, or chose riders better suited for other tasks. Same for Saxobank but likely because Riis felt Schlecks et all could overcome the minor deficits incured. Garmin did prepare, and look where their top GC lads are. Columbia could have, but wisely chose to focus on green (a goal they temporarily forgot with dire consequences). Both Liquigas and Caisse d'Espargne also prepared and chose teams to limit losses - which is why they finished 4th and 5th.

In fact, looking at the OP's list, the only real GC potential that has been significantly affected by the TTT is Evans. Seems all the other teams with GC hopeful made the effort to prepare for the full race, whereas Lotto did not.

 

[bikeGURU]

It seems like those standings without the TTT just compress things a little and change a few places. The overall picture doesn't really change however. Wiggens moves ahead of Armstrong for 2nd/3rd (assuming that Le Mevel and Nocentini wouldn't be anywhere close if they hadn't been so far behind after the TTT). For how 'bad' Armstrong is riding he is still ahead of the amazing Sastre, Schleck, Evans, etc etc after a ITT and 2 mountain top finishes over 15 stages of the TdF. Contador is still 1:30 ahead of the pack and sitting comfortably in the lead. And if Evans was so much faster than his team in the TTT he should have just sat on the front and pulled them through like Cance did with Saxo. If they couldn't hold his wheel then they really had a poor showing or Evans was surging off the front and trying to drop them.

 

[titotito]

For sure this wouldn't be the actual GC if there hadn't been a time trial. The wildcards like Le Melvel and Hindcapie probably wouldn't be there, or would be replaced by people with less climbing ability. But I do think it would be a more interesting race if the main GC contenders were still tightly packed. Yes, the Tour is a team event, but strong teams already get that advantage on all the other stages. Just look at Kloden dragging Armstrong up to Verbier, or how hard AG2R had to work to protect their yellow jersey and yet still needed help. The GC riders on strong teams already benefit on every other stage, why give them an even bigger advantage with a TTT?

I've stood by the side of the road for four hours waiting for the Tour, only to have it pass me in two seconds, so I understand from a fan's perspective why people like the TTT. And I'm sure sponsors like it because each team is guaranteed some TV time, but I think it has too much impact on the final result and ends up taking a good deal of excitement away from the Tour. If it were me I'd get rid of it.

 

[klodifan]

Well said.

For sure this wouldn't be the actual GC if there hadn't been a time trial. The wildcards like Le Melvel and Hindcapie probably wouldn't be there, or would be replaced by people with less climbing ability. But I do think it would be a more interesting race if the main GC contenders were still tightly packed. Yes, the Tour is a team event, but strong teams already get that advantage on all the other stages. Just look at Kloden dragging Armstrong up to Verbier, or how hard AG2R had to work to protect their yellow jersey and yet still needed help. The GC riders on strong teams already benefit on every other stage, why give them an even bigger advantage with a TTT?

I've stood by the side of the road for four hours waiting for the Tour, only to have it pass me in two seconds, so I understand from a fan's perspective why people like the TTT. And I'm sure sponsors like it because each team is guaranteed some TV time, but I think it has too much impact on the final result and ends up taking a good deal of excitement away from the Tour. If it were me I'd get rid of it.

 

[badboyberty]

Thanks for doing the sums, I was going to do them myself, so I guess I owe someone ten minutes.

One thing we still don't know is what the standings would be had le Tour started with a 15km TTT and Stage Four had been a 50km ITT. I suspect things would be a be a whole lot different. Who knows, Menchov might even be riding like he actually gives a damn.

 

[auscyclefan94]

the best rider is winning, and with two difficult mountain stages, an ITT, and the sprint up Ventoux still to come, the better riders will continue to filter to the top.

I've mentioned this before - during Armstrong's 7 victories, there were 6 TTT's, and only three which USPostal/Disco won. Blaming the TTT for one's favorite riders poor performance is crying over spilt milk. Lotto knew coming in that there was a team time trial, and knew that several teams would be strong. Yet they did not either prepare their team for that race, or chose riders better suited for other tasks. Same for Saxobank but likely because Riis felt Schlecks et all could overcome the minor deficits incured. Garmin did prepare, and look where their top GC lads are. Columbia could have, but wisely chose to focus on green (a goal they temporarily forgot with dire consequences). Both Liquigas and Caisse d'Espargne also prepared and chose teams to limit losses - which is why they finished 4th and 5th.

In fact, looking at the OP's list, the only real GC potential that has been significantly affected by the TTT is Evans. Seems all the other teams with GC hopeful made the effort to prepare for the full race, whereas Lotto did not.

They had a team time trial training camp in Zolder. Mabye a bit more revision of the course would be nice.

 

[auscyclefan94]

It seems like those standings without the TTT just compress things a little and change a few places. The overall picture doesn't really change however. Wiggens moves ahead of Armstrong for 2nd/3rd (assuming that Le Mevel and Nocentini wouldn't be anywhere close if they hadn't been so far behind after the TTT). For how 'bad' Armstrong is riding he is still ahead of the amazing Sastre, Schleck, Evans, etc etc after a ITT and 2 mountain top finishes over 15 stages of the TdF. Contador is still 1:30 ahead of the pack and sitting comfortably in the lead. And if Evans was so much faster than his team in the TTT he should have just sat on the front and pulled them through like Cance did with Saxo. If they couldn't hold his wheel then they really had a poor showing or Evans was surging off the front and trying to drop them.

That's a stupid statement. Why would Cadel want to drop them? His time wouldn't have been any better. When i was watching Cadel was doing most of the pulling.

 

[TibetT]

Go to agree Cadel did most of the pulling. He was also consistently encouraging the team. Yes, he dropped them just before the line. Can you blame him for putting in a big pull at the end, most likely hoping that he could carry them over the line adn save some precious seconds. Felt sorry him though - he look like he was struggling not to go flatout...

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

woah.. you are pretty funny...not. I want to see the best rider to win not the rider with the best team win(even though you need a strong team to win). It is an individual event and that's how it always should be... get rid of this team time trial crap. This is not sour grapes Johhny C, it's called wanting an even contest with the best riders winning.

But me Lad! that is exactly what is happening!!

Never ever, would Cadel (irregardless of the team) be able to match the climbing skills conta displayed on sunday!

 

[595RED]

Its the race killing, spectacle destroying, numbing tactics Bruyneel has implemented in all his TDF managed campaigns, KILLS THE RACE

 

[karlboss]

resurrection thread

I know this thread died, but wanted to look at the Final GC were there no TTT. As an aside check what happens if Armstrong doesn't take a 41 second break.

Top 10 GC, no TTT

Contador st
Schleck A 3:31
Schleck F 5:24
Armstrong 5:24
Wiggins 5:43
Nibali 6:37
Kloden 6:42
Le Mevel 11:41
Vande Velde 11:46
Kreuziger 13:18

Will we be looking at a similar top 10 next year?

 

[progressor]

I know this thread died, but wanted to look at the Final GC were there no TTT. As an aside check what happens if Armstrong doesn't take a 41 second break.

Top 10 GC, no TTT

Contador st
Schleck A 3:31
Schleck F 5:24
Armstrong 5:24
Wiggins 5:43
Nibali 6:37
Kloden 6:42
Le Mevel 11:41
Vande Velde 11:46
Kreuziger 13:18

Will we be looking at a similar top 10 next year?

Interesting. Given that armstrong was riding away from f Schleck and wiggins on Ventoux, but not attempting to take time out of them, his third has nothing to do with the TTT. Although I'm sure some puller will be here soon to spin some reason why it was pure luck or somesuch.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Interesting. Given that armstrong was riding away from f Schleck and wiggins on Ventoux, but not attempting to take time out of them, his third has nothing to do with the TTT. Although I'm sure some puller will be here soon to spin some reason why it was pure luck or somesuch.

Not sure how you ride away from someone, without trying to take time from them. Especially when everyone was on their limit.

Only to say that the result would be unclear as to whether he was third, or fourth. With Schleck on the same time, it would come down to countback.
I suspect, with his stage win, Frank would have finished third, as Kalboss has placed him, in his list.
Looking on the bright side, we would have had brothers on the podium, which would have been a first?
Instead we had Mr Glum.

Shows we've had little or no news for almost a week.

 

[karlboss]

Given team tactics I find it hard to argue who was stronger than who after Contador first, Andy second. I'd say frank 3rd. Armstrong 4th. As frank was pacing and sacrificing for Andy and Armstrong had others riding for him early on.

 

[karlboss]

Not sure how you ride away from someone, without trying to take time from them. Especially when everyone was on their limit.

Only to say that the result would be unclear as to whether he was third, or fourth. With Schleck on the same time, it would come down to countback.
I suspect, with his stage win, Frank would have finished third, as Kalboss has placed him, in his list.
Looking on the bright side, we would have had brothers on the podium, which would have been a first?
Instead we had Mr Glum.

Shows we've had little or no news for almost a week.

Couldn't agree more.
Though in relevance to that list,
1st is on one team then day light to
2nd and 3rd on one team
Shack 3 or 4 solid riders, but there's daylight to the top 2.

 

[Tangled Tango]

TTT yes or no

I think the TTT is fine as long as it only effects the team competition and not the individual GC. Sean Kelly said this years ago and in my opinion was spot on. There are some very good teams that happen to have more climbers or sprinters than TT specialists and they lose time in the TT that can never be gained back. Since it´s a "Team Time Trial" it should effect only the team classification. I suspect that way instead of only a few GC favorites, the whole top ten would be fighting for yellow and we´d have a far more exciting Tour.

 

[kurtinsc]

I know this thread died, but wanted to look at the Final GC were there no TTT. As an aside check what happens if Armstrong doesn't take a 41 second break.

Top 10 GC, no TTT

Contador st
Schleck A 3:31
Schleck F 5:24
Armstrong 5:24
Wiggins 5:43
Nibali 6:37
Kloden 6:42
Le Mevel 11:41
Vande Velde 11:46
Kreuziger 13:18

Will we be looking at a similar top 10 next year?

I don't think it's realistic to just take the TTT out.

A more realistic comparison would be to take out the TTT... then add in another ITT.

The only person that would be helped by that switch would be Wiggins. Lance beat all the other GC top 10's not on Astana in the Annecy TT. He also beat all of them but Wiggins, Nibali and Kreuziger in the Monaco TT.


The TTT instead of an ITT actually HELPED the Schlecks. They would have lost much more time if they didn't have Cancellera towing their behinds in a TT.

 

[kurtinsc]

Just for kicks, here are the time differences in terms of time gained or lost in comparison to Armstrong if the Annecy TT results were used instead of the TTT results. It's a "best guess" way to judge how the standings might be different if an ITT had been in stage 4 rather then a TTT.

Wiggins - gains 1'05 on Lance
A. Schleck - gains 25 seconds
F. Schleck - loses 24 seconds
Nibali - gains 22 seconds
Kreuziger - loses 48 seconds
Le Mevel - gains 54 seconds
Kloden - gains 36 seconds
VdV - loses 12 seconds

So Lance would have moved down to 4th and Wiggins would have gotten the Podium. Frank would drop to 6th behind Kloden.

That's about all that would have happened. The only one to complain about the TTT should be Wiggins.