The Women's Road Racing Thread 2017

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

It's a step in the right direction, sure. But - hey! I just want more!

Rightfully so

Couldn't agree more !

 

[mr61%]

Re:

Great race and well done Annemiek

Agreed. Very pleased she won. Armitstead Deignan as usual blaming others when things don't go to plan. I think Vaughters was spot on about her.

And Van Vleuten, for that matter:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/10/04/world-cup-2022-warning-as-uci-says-it-may-need-to-shorten-doha-w/

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Something I don't understand about this concept:
With today's mountain stage, tomorrow's lumpy-stage, Saturday's ITT, and Sunday's sprint stage it could potentially be a pretty nice compromised version of the TdF.
Just make today's stage a bit longer - I'd say about 100-130 km - and have Saturday's stage be a prober ITT. Sunday's route would be the same as they've used the last couple of years, then they'd just need to find a good route for tomorrow, with the same finish as the men's and as many of the hills as possible.

The last 6 stages would have made a great one week race...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Lizzie WTF. Where has she been hiding that kind of mountain performance for so long, or was it just because the race was so short? She has never shown anything even remotely like that on a long climb - she did pretty well in the Olympic road race, but apart from that which was obviously a peak moment for her, she's always lost copious amounts of time in the longer and bigger climbs outside the punchier remit, and that's why for years the Giro was the only race she'd be domestiquing at rather than team leader. Thankfully for my sanity, however, Annemiek still has enough of her Giro form left over to make the distance count, and with the format giving a rest day she has to be considered the obvious favourite here as she's a better time triallist between her and Deignan, plus the timegap between Lizzie and Elisa in 3rd is such that it will be hard for the chasers to gang up on her by working together, because it would take a pretty significant effort from the chasers to pull back to Lizzie, let alone start to get to work on the gap to Annemiek. Especially because while there's fairly small gaps between the riders from 3 to 6, Guarnier and Spratt obviously aren't going to work with teammates up the road. The first real group where you'd see mutual working together to progress forward is well outside the top 10 and would be Kirchmann/PFP/Ludwig/Pintar who are starting over four and a half minutes down, which can't be caught in the time given. And even then, Kirchmann and Ludwig will do limited work until they catch Stultiens and Moolman-Pasio.

Slightly disappointed in that the riders we know are the elite climbers for most of the year were somewhat underdone here - Ash is under-raced after illness and Kasia doesn't look to have good form at all - and the only real breakthrough climber that really produced a standout performer was Ana Cristina Sanabria for Servetto-Giusta, although some slightly more established names that were still wildcards and underdogs, such as Lauren Stephens and Hanna Nilsson, did themselves great credit in their performances too. I don't know if it's a difference because of distance, weather conditions or perhaps simply as it's from a complete cold open rather than late in a stage race when fatigue is a factor and many of the strongest climbers are therefore on their own early, but it didn't really play out with the biggest names putting in the biggest performances, certainly not from a climbing point of view anyway.

Hey, I thought this was the year Lizzie would want to go for the Giro since the race was uncharacteristically easy climbing-wise and she'd shown her best ever climbing form in the Ardennes, but she was a non-factor - maybe her climbing form was just mistimed and so it was today we saw what she can really do. But yes, it's been known for many years that she's an abrasive personality, shall we say, and certainly the public presentation of her runs counter to what we often see following the heat of battle; that reading of her has been backed up by the responses to her from several in the péloton and around it following her little contre-temps with the whereabouts protocols last year. But she has definitely, since that little setback, been much more willing to play a domestique role on several occasions, rather than simply resting up through the races she doesn't lead. That said, as the Boels juggernaut continues to strengthen, there's more jockeying for position on who gets to lead certain races, which has been eased a bit this season with Stevens' retirement and Guarnier's injuries - so Lizzie performing so strongly on what you'd have thought was terrain preserved entirely for Anna and Meg within the team is a marker that, really, she merits consideration as a protected rider in the mountainous races too.

 

[Red Rick]

More than 20% slower than the men's ascent. I know I shouldn't compare, but it seems huge to me, if you try to compare to other endurance sports.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I ran a comparison a couple of years ago using TT courses where the same route was used (such as Solvang in the Tour of California, for example) which put the difference as between 10-15% tending upwards as distance increased. The fact so few women's races include climbs of this distance and scale probably factors into that as well, and also that none of the active péloton will have ever done the Izoard in race conditions before. The percentage differences didn't seem too out of line with athletics and cross-country skiing, but the difference on the ascent is much higher than usual - unfortunately without a few more comparable climbing times (don't think anybody timed Mara on the Mortirolo last year, for example, or Kiesenhofer on Ventoux although the level of the field and how big her advantage was might make it a difficult comparison) it's difficult to see if this is a noteworthy pattern or an anomaly.

Of course, dear race organizers, to aid our research thusly, you could arrange more women's races over major mountains to enable us to build up a better dataset

 

[Red Rick]

I don't know the women's schedule well enough, but can I assume few people actually peak for this?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Annemiek was only 1.5 minute slower than Barguil in the final 4.5km, which is more or less similar to Atapuma's pace.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

Annemiek was only 1.5 minute slower than Barguil in the final 4.5km, which is more or less similar to Atapuma's pace.

And that begs the question: Who would have won the sprint?

 

[Forever The Best]

Am I the only one who thinks the stage design was disgraceful? In 2008, they climbed Izoard, Montgenevre and Sestriere. (for the finish) Nicole Cooke thinks the same too.
https://twitter.com/NicoleCooke2012/status/788490136887693312
This one is just a unipuerto. They could have at least added Vars, but alas, it would have been too hard.

 

[RedheadDane]

What if they'd started around where the men had the intermediate sprint? Would've been about half the distance, and included Vars and - of course - Izoard.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

What if they'd started around where the men had the intermediate sprint? Would've been about half the distance, and included Vars and - of course - Izoard.

A start in Barcelonette or Jausiers would be fine with having both Vars and Izoard. Also, the man had the intermediate sprint at Les Thuile, earlier than Barcelonette or Jausiers.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Red Rick - most riders will be tailing off from Giro form, so probably not at peak, no.

FTB - no, you're far from alone. Many criticisms of the race have been leveled at the lack of distance (the women do less than 100km over 2 race days with a rest day in the middle lest the effort hurt them) and the Unipuerto nature meaning it doesn't really reflect a proper mountain stage either, as well, and given ASO's failure to match the kind of efforts of other race organizers like Flanders Classics in terms of promoting and developing the women's races, the paltry distance and the way they instigated the change without a care for organisers like those of Thüringen, a long established and prestigious race as well as one of the longest surviving stage races, the optimism that came from no longer having the patronizing flat circuit race (that doesn't really showcase the best of women's cycling) and instead balancing the WWT calendar a bit more with another climber's race (exacerbated after the Giro presented its somewhat disappointing route) was tempered with trepidation about how much of a benefit ASO's changes would really provide for women's racing. And certainly I would have preferred something like the Madonna della Guardia '16 stage with four climbs, rather than a truncated l'Étape for pros, but at the same time because we have so few real HC mountains in women's cycling it was still a spectacle that had interest and hype - and threw up some unexpected results, perhaps as I noted because of being standalone and so short, so recovery and fatigue were not as key factors as they might ordinarily be in a climbing race such as this. Certainly Deignan was the big surprise, having never even remotely come close to that kind of climbing performance in her career.

Annemiek also put her money where her mouth is, having said at the Giro that she was happy with her race but hoped next year that the organizers would include some better mountain stages and that she would have backed herself in a mountaintop finish, even despite her demon descending skills, she had the chance to prove it today and did. She's usually quite forthright and a good person to follow to get a common sense, no nonsense reaction, second only to Audrey Cordon-Ragot.

 

[Forever The Best]

Yeah, I was very disappointed with the Giro route too, no real mountains. Also, Emakumeen Bira's stages this year were too short in my opinion. Also, what do you think about Rivera and Niewiadoma? I think Rivera made the jump to top level but will she be able to continue? Do you think Niewiadoma can win a Giro Rosa with real mountains?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Rivera ought to be able to continue, her issue was simply that she was in such good form at the start of the year that she's run out of it.

Kasia is still only 22. If she gets in the right team that can back her up (the current iteration of WM3 I think doesn't have enough strength in depth to prevent her being worked over by the likes of Boels like she was in the Ardennes, but going to a team like Boels would simultaneously be a disaster for her independence as a rider given their star-studded roster) I have no doubt she has the capabilities, in theory she has a few years of getting stronger yet but that's no guarantor it will actually happen, depending on a number of factors. After all, Eleonora Patuzzo was beating Anna van der Breggen in the climbs as a junior/espoir, but retired to follow education at the age Kasia's at now.

The one concern is that she's not really imposed herself on a big mountaintop finish type stage against the big guns yet, although the fact does remain that there's been little reason for her to almost until today in fact; she was working as a domestique at the 2014 and 2015 Giro MTFs, and in 2016 she'd lost time on Mortirolo so was attacking from 70k out in the MTF stage. When she's had to face MTFs in lesser fields, such as Pracul in the Giro del Trentino, she's won, but at the same time we have to remember, Emma Pooley was for years the #1 or #2 climber in the péloton and at one point World ITT champion, and she still never won a Giro. Kasia has all the tools to win a Giro, but whether or not she will is a separate question.

 

[Forever The Best]

Thanks a lot for the answer! I also think that perhaps Kasia is more suited to races with shorter climbs, than the real mountains.

 

[Echoes]

Grand Prix Glineur: The Thais Animated the Race

“La Nouvelle Gazette” (regional section of the “region centre” around Mons, area where both the GP Glineur and the GP Cerami were held) – 20 July 2017! It's the only edition of the Sudpresse group that reports about the Cerami GP, and of course about the Glineur GP. Shame on Wallonia!

A very nice image, everybody smiling … The Thai riders animated the Grand Prix Glineur 2017. Those young girls who discovered Belgian races, showed what they were worth placing their best element [Sricha-Um Chanakan, her compatriot Wongpadlang Jutamas being 14th] at the 12th place up the Rue Ferrer in Frameries where the Druyts “family” placed two women on the podium: Demmy 1st, mighty strong on the final false flat and Jessy 3rd! A women’s race which should deserve better attention for women’s cycling is an integral part of the “petite reine”.

Top20 of the GP Glineur on the picture.

Gilbert Glineur was the driving force behind the creation of the Cerami GP back in 1964. Nowadays the Cerami association is organizing both races : http://www.grandprixcerami.be

Both races also finish in Frameries on the same uphill false flat street: Rue Ferrer.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

She seems most at home on sort of Lombardia like climbs. Her emergence came on La Crosetta, which is a legit cat.1 in fairness; I think she needs something a bit more than a puncheur climb in order to get rid of a normal version of the likes of Deignan, her lack of a sprint means she needs the climbs to be long enough to break down the durable sprinters and the punchy riders, but she has yet to really make a climb like San Domenico her own. Stages we'd describe as medium mountain for the men are probably the best terrain for her, the Jaizkibel, Arrate, Urkiola kind of size, I think.

 

[Forever The Best]

Agreed, LS.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Some of the number pinning on these women is amateurish!

I still struggle to understand why numbers are pinned on. They know the numbers well in advance and could get jerseys printed easily enough.

Back in the early '00, we used spray starch to stick our number nice and flat to our kit. In heavy rain they could come off though.

 

[Rvizzle]

Sorry if this one has already come up - I've noticed most riders taking bottles in the last 10 km or so. Are the rules different from men's to women's? Intrigued as to reasons. Can see a few clear ones such as numbers on the road but keen to hear the official line and if there any other quirks along these lines.

Cheers!

P.s. Bloody good ride from AvV and well done Lizzie especially considering she looked to be riding dom on the front for ages.

 

[yaco]

Annemieks time for the last 5kms of Izoard was third behind Barguil and Bardet according to Strava.

 

[Eagle]

Boardman saying riders can work together in the pursuit tomorrow, is that true?

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Boardman saying riders can work together in the pursuit tomorrow, is that true?

Deignan suggested the same in her post-stage interview so seems so. The whole thing is a farce so might as well show it up as much as possible.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm not opposed to a Verfolgung in any way. I just dislike the use of the women as guinea pigs in such a strange format of race (two stages in three days with such a short total). I don't see a problem in allowing drafting so long as they have to do it on road bikes, as that's often part of the fun in sports where pursuit racing is ingrained - think the Nordic Combined where athletes of competing intentions have to work together to pull themselves to the front, or consider whether they want to tow a rival of a colleague etc. - that would work perfectly in cycling. Today, ELB has to go off like a woman possessed to prevent Megan Guarnier making contact, because Meg has Lizzie up the road and will therefore sit on, for example. Likewise if Gillow catches the five seconds to Guarnier, or if Spratt catches the eight seconds to Gillow, because Spratt has Annemiek leading the race. It may even be a complete damp squib because 99 times out of 100 you would expect Annemiek to beat Lizzie in an ITT and neither of them have anybody close enough to work with for the majority of the race and the first group that can set up a TTT to gain places is the Ludwig/PFP/Kirchmann/Pintar group over four minutes back (but ought to catch Sabrina Stultiens starting 9 seconds in front of them). The pursuit was a miserable, miserable failure as a TTT format in the Hammer Series, but that was team racing, so a couple of catches leaves a péloton, also on TT bikes so everybody's tetchy about racing in a bunch like that and impetus goes out of the race. Individually, though, a couple of catches can radically change the complexion of the race.

So I have little problem with the format of the pursuit, but I definitely think from a racing point of view, it would be better the other way round, that is to say, the pursuit is either a difficult hilly circuit or a hillclimb/MTT format at the end of the race, so that the effect of drafting is minimised. That's the format I've used when including one in the Race Design Thread - once at Malbun in the Liechtensteinrundfahrt and once at Rudno Polje/Pokljuka in the Tour de Slovénie. It would be best served as the final stage of a 4- or 5-stage race with a hilly stage or medium mountain without an MTF, a sprint or two and a reasonable length ITT, so that the time gaps are suitable and the pure climbers will be disadvantaged and need to pick their way through the field while those at the front will need to preserve their position and the less climbing adept TT riders will need to be incentivized to be aggressive in the flatter stages to try to give themselves sufficient advantage to defend.

I've always maintained that the best race to trial the format would be the Tour Down Under. The race is mostly sprints with bonus seconds setting time, but if you keep the Stirling/Corkscrew Hill stages, but the last two stages are switched around a bit, it could work well. For example, the final, crappy Adelaide criterium could be changed into an urban ITT of around 15km or so, and then the old Willunga Hill circuit from before it was a HTF could host a pursuit - two laps of the circuit starting in Willunga then a third climb of the hill to finish at the top.