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Van Summeren and Zaugg performed at more or less their presumed level, and it somehow was enough to win those races. They were both good riders before and after.
Goss is different. He had the biggest regression since Vainsteins.
Goss is different. He had the biggest regression since Vainsteins.
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Did you mention Wesemann, just because you didn't follow cycling back then and dind't know the name?
He was 2 times a podium finisher at PR(and more top 10 places), podium at AGR, his Wiesenhofteam got an invitation to PR solely because he was in the team. He was a classics contender in the same league like Vanmarcke, and I doubt someone would call him a worse monument winner (if he ever wins one)
loge1884 said:
Did you mention Wesemann, just because you didn't follow cycling back then and dind't know the name?
He was 2 times a podium finisher at PR(and more top 10 places), podium at AGR, his Wiesenhofteam got an invitation to PR solely because he was in the team. He was a classics contender in the same league like Vanmarcke, and I doubt someone would call him a worse monument winner (if he ever wins one)
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Let's give Hayman a pass for winning the most epic race cycling has seen for a while
Valv.Piti said:
Let's give Hayman a pass for winning the most epic race cycling has seen for a while
This is a stupid thread. A monument is incredibly hard to win. It's not like a GT stage where a break might be allowed go while the peloton take the day off - everyone on the starting line wants to win. Added to that the extreme distance and the chaotic nature of racing - I think whoever manages to cross the line first at the end deserves some credit regardless of who they are. There were people saying after this year's Paris Roubaix, one of the toughest, best races I've ever watched, "well it was a good race, but it's diminished by the fact that Boonen didn't win" which I find insane. If you only want the favourites to win then why not just stick everyone in a lab and give the trophy to whoever puts out the most watts over 6 hours.
Take someone like Van Summeren - he's seen as a 'lesser' winner, but he went in a chase group to catch the break, crashed, caught the break anyway, held on through a heap of attacks as half the break were dropped, then soloed away from the group, finishing the last 5km with a flat tyre. That's heroic stuff even before you take into account it happened at the toughest race of the year.
I dislike the style of someone like Gerrans, but these races are the absolute pinnacle of the sport, and winning them is incredibly hard, and a massive achievement regardless of circumstances.
Take someone like Van Summeren - he's seen as a 'lesser' winner, but he went in a chase group to catch the break, crashed, caught the break anyway, held on through a heap of attacks as half the break were dropped, then soloed away from the group, finishing the last 5km with a flat tyre. That's heroic stuff even before you take into account it happened at the toughest race of the year.
I dislike the style of someone like Gerrans, but these races are the absolute pinnacle of the sport, and winning them is incredibly hard, and a massive achievement regardless of circumstances.
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you might have a point ... I was a bit indifferent about cycling in the late Armstrong years ....
procyclingfan said:
you might have a point ... I was a bit indifferent about cycling in the late Armstrong years ....
This is s***.. Surely the beauty of the sport is the small guy can win some times ...like the FA cup
Not every win should be Cancelera or Sagan
In fact Zaugg or Van Summeran's wins are better as the dream came true for a rider who does not necessarily have the big talent...so for me they are the best wins..>Easy to win when God gave you the physical abilities
And it helps every rider who entes a race to believe they can do it one day and keeps them going as they pull in the 1st 50Km in the rain in Belguim in March
Not every win should be Cancelera or Sagan
In fact Zaugg or Van Summeran's wins are better as the dream came true for a rider who does not necessarily have the big talent...so for me they are the best wins..>Easy to win when God gave you the physical abilities
And it helps every rider who entes a race to believe they can do it one day and keeps them going as they pull in the 1st 50Km in the rain in Belguim in March
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well I was reading the 'worst' in the title in the sense of 'Not very good usually' but others seem to have read it as 'Rider I dislike personally for no good reason' which I agree is s***
I agree that if you win a monument then you were QED a good cyclist. Unless there was a time all the other riders were eaten by bears or something?
HelloDolly said:
well I was reading the 'worst' in the title in the sense of 'Not very good usually' but others seem to have read it as 'Rider I dislike personally for no good reason' which I agree is s***
I agree that if you win a monument then you were QED a good cyclist. Unless there was a time all the other riders were eaten by bears or something?
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Andy crashed heavily during the 2012 Critérium du Dauphiné.
His pelvis was never right after that crash. Combine that with the fact that he was never as motivated as other riders of his level (Contador, Froome etc) and that was the end.
Basically I think his injuries meant he was unable to get to the top form he once had, and with that he lost the motivation. Without being able to challenge for a GT victory he had no reason to keep trying.
A true shame of a great talent, though tbh I think somehow I like him more because of his struggles with motivation, I can identify more with that than with a monster trainer like Froome who can just live his entire life in service to the TDF (it's the same reason I loved Ullrich, who btw was also never quite the same after a crash in the Deutschland Tour)
PatrickLeeds said:Do you have a bicycle?El Pistolero said:
I am stunned to realise how young Andy Schleck is. What happened man, what happened?
Poels a 'worst rider' though?? I should be so worst.
Andy crashed heavily during the 2012 Critérium du Dauphiné.
His pelvis was never right after that crash. Combine that with the fact that he was never as motivated as other riders of his level (Contador, Froome etc) and that was the end.
Basically I think his injuries meant he was unable to get to the top form he once had, and with that he lost the motivation. Without being able to challenge for a GT victory he had no reason to keep trying.
A true shame of a great talent, though tbh I think somehow I like him more because of his struggles with motivation, I can identify more with that than with a monster trainer like Froome who can just live his entire life in service to the TDF (it's the same reason I loved Ullrich, who btw was also never quite the same after a crash in the Deutschland Tour)
Re: Re:
Oh yes, I heard he crashed into an enormous pile of food with his mouth open.
But I know completely what you mean. you get the impression with some riders that if you cut their heads open there would be nothing inside but whirring cogs and gears and a copy of his training schedules and diet plans.
I sort of get the vibe from Sagan that he doesn't take it so seriously. I am quite sure I am wrong, and that he trains just as much as everyone else, but he doesn't SEEM like that and I think that's one reason he is so poular
Ramira said:
Oh yes, I heard he crashed into an enormous pile of food with his mouth open.
But I know completely what you mean. you get the impression with some riders that if you cut their heads open there would be nothing inside but whirring cogs and gears and a copy of his training schedules and diet plans.
I sort of get the vibe from Sagan that he doesn't take it so seriously. I am quite sure I am wrong, and that he trains just as much as everyone else, but he doesn't SEEM like that and I think that's one reason he is so poular
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Yeah Wesemann seems incredibly underrated. Apart from his win in RvV he was on the Podium twice in PR, once in AGR and once in GW. Sure he wasn't an inevitable winnner like Boonen or Cancellara, but he was a very good rider.
Oddly enough Devolder might be a better (though still ridiculous) shout. As apart from his victory his best result in a classic was a 7th in PR (his only other top 10 in a true classic). But even though he won because people were marking Boonen, his effort was incredibly powerful both times, a very deserving winner. Though a bit of a flash in the pan.
Billie said:Can't believe people named Devolder and Wesemann
Yeah Wesemann seems incredibly underrated. Apart from his win in RvV he was on the Podium twice in PR, once in AGR and once in GW. Sure he wasn't an inevitable winnner like Boonen or Cancellara, but he was a very good rider.
Oddly enough Devolder might be a better (though still ridiculous) shout. As apart from his victory his best result in a classic was a 7th in PR (his only other top 10 in a true classic). But even though he won because people were marking Boonen, his effort was incredibly powerful both times, a very deserving winner. Though a bit of a flash in the pan.
Re: Re:
Well yeah of course his motivation was a huge issue. But that was always the case. And after that crash he was nowhere near the dominant TT rider he was before. He used to beat everyone by 3 minutes or more before that crash.
I could be wrong of course, but I just feel his motivation (and extra pounds) don't explain his drop in TT performance, they would explain his lesser climbing but I think the TT issues came from something else. He was a far better TT rider than climber before his crash, after he was arguably a better climber.
Sagan is different imo. I think the guy is incredibly motivated, you can't be that good for that much of the year without superb discipline. But you're right that there's a similarity in that he seems to enjoy cycling far more than others. He clearly just loves to race more than anything, and that makes him irresistible as a fan.
PatrickLeeds said:
Well yeah of course his motivation was a huge issue. But that was always the case. And after that crash he was nowhere near the dominant TT rider he was before. He used to beat everyone by 3 minutes or more before that crash.
I could be wrong of course, but I just feel his motivation (and extra pounds) don't explain his drop in TT performance, they would explain his lesser climbing but I think the TT issues came from something else. He was a far better TT rider than climber before his crash, after he was arguably a better climber.
Sagan is different imo. I think the guy is incredibly motivated, you can't be that good for that much of the year without superb discipline. But you're right that there's a similarity in that he seems to enjoy cycling far more than others. He clearly just loves to race more than anything, and that makes him irresistible as a fan.
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Devolder also won Belgian NC 3X, got third in Suisse, TOP 10'd a GT and regularly won stage races. Don't like him but absolutely do not understand why he would even be named here...
Ramira said:Billie said:Can't believe people named Devolder and Wesemann
Yeah Wesemann seems incredibly underrated. Apart from his win in RvV he was on the Podium twice in PR, once in AGR and once in GW. Sure he wasn't an inevitable winnner like Boonen or Cancellara, but he was a very good rider.
Oddly enough Devolder might be a better (though still ridiculous) shout. As apart from his victory his best result in a classic was a 7th in PR (his only other top 10 in a true classic). But even though he won because people were marking Boonen, his effort was incredibly powerful both times, a very deserving winner. Though a bit of a flash in the pan.
Devolder also won Belgian NC 3X, got third in Suisse, TOP 10'd a GT and regularly won stage races. Don't like him but absolutely do not understand why he would even be named here...
Thee's Motivation and Motivation - I would not be able to respect a lazy rider, but of course there 'lazy' would be my 'working my socks off'. I think the difference is where they seem to care about nothing else whatsoever. You can imagine some riders getting into the bus, the DS switches them off, puts their head in a box full of styrofoam beads until next time and their body on a set of rollers.
which modern rider would you expect to be a great guy to share a drink with, and which would just sit there saying 'definitely. Super Strong' and talking about training and diet all night til you get bored and go home?
which modern rider would you expect to be a great guy to share a drink with, and which would just sit there saying 'definitely. Super Strong' and talking about training and diet all night til you get bored and go home?
Re: Re:
You're right to say he has no place here. He was definitely a very good rider.
My point was more that his victories were arguably more surprising, since apart from his two wins he never really got close to winning another cobbled classic, let alone a monument. While Wesemann had come quite close twice in PR, as well as GW. Not to mention he had no team to speak of.
I think Wesemann was the more likely winner, however as a complete rider Devolder was better. He could compete in RvV, ride a good GC and had a good TT. A very complete rider, but not as good in the discipline they both won a Monument in, the hilly cobbles.
Of course, there's no way in hell anyone reaches the level Ullrich and Andy did without enormous amounts of training. But both did also like to enjoy themselves (not like they were the only ones, take Boonen for example). While someone like Froome doesn't seem willing to take even an afternoon off.
That being said, I think I'd love to spend a day talking to Froome, but that's mostly because I'm a mathematician and a bit of a geek, so I'd be interested to hear about the ideas behind his training. But I couldn't really see myself being friends with someone like that, would get boring once you've learned everything of interest.
Billie said:Ramira said:Billie said:Can't believe people named Devolder and Wesemann
Yeah Wesemann seems incredibly underrated. Apart from his win in RvV he was on the Podium twice in PR, once in AGR and once in GW. Sure he wasn't an inevitable winnner like Boonen or Cancellara, but he was a very good rider.
Oddly enough Devolder might be a better (though still ridiculous) shout. As apart from his victory his best result in a classic was a 7th in PR (his only other top 10 in a true classic). But even though he won because people were marking Boonen, his effort was incredibly powerful both times, a very deserving winner. Though a bit of a flash in the pan.
Devolder also won Belgian NC 3X, got third in Suisse, TOP 10'd a GT and regularly won stage races. Don't like him but absolutely do not understand why he would even be named here...
You're right to say he has no place here. He was definitely a very good rider.
My point was more that his victories were arguably more surprising, since apart from his two wins he never really got close to winning another cobbled classic, let alone a monument. While Wesemann had come quite close twice in PR, as well as GW. Not to mention he had no team to speak of.
I think Wesemann was the more likely winner, however as a complete rider Devolder was better. He could compete in RvV, ride a good GC and had a good TT. A very complete rider, but not as good in the discipline they both won a Monument in, the hilly cobbles.
PatrickLeeds said:
Of course, there's no way in hell anyone reaches the level Ullrich and Andy did without enormous amounts of training. But both did also like to enjoy themselves (not like they were the only ones, take Boonen for example). While someone like Froome doesn't seem willing to take even an afternoon off.
That being said, I think I'd love to spend a day talking to Froome, but that's mostly because I'm a mathematician and a bit of a geek, so I'd be interested to hear about the ideas behind his training
. But I couldn't really see myself being friends with someone like that, would get boring once you've learned everything of interest.Re:
Good idea! But I can't pick only one.
Demare!
Then Nibali (should have gotten 2 years ban for his Vuelta performance) and Poels.
Bobrik, Jalabert, Rodriguez, Di Luca!, Kristoff, Gerrans, Cipollini, Iglinskij, Berzin, Vinokourov!!!
If I should pick one then Vinokourov.
Good idea! But I can't pick only one.
Demare!
Then Nibali (should have gotten 2 years ban for his Vuelta performance) and Poels.
Bobrik, Jalabert, Rodriguez, Di Luca!, Kristoff, Gerrans, Cipollini, Iglinskij, Berzin, Vinokourov!!!
If I should pick one then Vinokourov.
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