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Theory on Cav

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proffate

proffate

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This sprint field is weak AF, Cav is the undisputed GOAT, sprinting is as much about technique as it is about physical ability, and...

One's sprint power really doesn't drop off that much by the age of 39. The only reason no other sprinters win at that age is because they're burned out by then. Cav would have retired ages ago if he didn't have the record to chase.

I'll take Cav at 39 over Mike Tuennisen or Tyler Farrar at any age. So IOW, weirder things have happened. 23 year old Cav would have won that tour stage with 5 bike lengths.

"Cavendish hasn't shown anything all year"

Literally what is he supposed to show? He cares about one thing only. Haters should just be happy that he'll probably retire for good now that he's got it.

Cav may be the least suspicious winner of the tour so far.
 
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Cookster15

Cookster15

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proffate said:
This sprint field is weak AF, Cav is the undisputed GOAT, sprinting is as much about technique as it is about physical ability, and...

One's sprint power really doesn't drop off that much by the age of 39. The only reason no other sprinters win at that age is because they're burned out by then. Cav would have retired ages ago if he didn't have the record to chase.

I'll take Cav at 39 over Mike Tuennisen or Tyler Farrar at any age. So IOW, weirder things have happened. 23 year old Cav would have won that tour stage with 5 bike lengths.

"Cavendish hasn't shown anything all year"

Literally what is he supposed to show? He cares about one thing only. Haters should just be happy that he'll probably retire for good now that he's got it.

Cav may be the least suspicious winner of the tour so far.
Click to expand...
It is not a weak field. As for doping are we suggesting some kind of blood manipulation is helping him sprint better?
 
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Nomad

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Cookster15 said:
It is not a weak field. As for doping are we suggesting some kind of blood manipulation is helping him sprint better?
Click to expand...
Possibly based on historical evidence from other dominate sprinters.

Cipollini was a client of Fuentes & was said to have used enormous quantities of EPO & blood transfusions. Zabel admitted to have used EPO throughout his career with Telekom, which had an organized team doping program. Petacchi was caught up in Operation Aderlass, which was a blood transfusion operation with cyclists & XC skiers as clients.

Doesn't "Super Mario" & Cavendish have similar riding styles & career achievements? And as I mentioned previously, Cipollini was 36 when he won his last GT stage (Giro) & retired at 37.

www.cyclingnews.com

Report: Cipollini used 25 blood bags before 2003 Giro d'Italia | Cyclingnews.com

Gazzetta continues to detail alleged Fuentes doping programme
www.cyclingnews.com www.cyclingnews.com
 
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Cookster15

Cookster15

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Nomad said:
Possibly based on historical evidence from other dominate sprinters?

Cipollini was a client of Fuentes & was said to have used enormous quantities of EPO & blood transfusions. Zabel admitted to have used EPO throughout his career with Telekom, which had an organized team doping program. Petacchi was caught up in Operation Aderlass, which was a blood transfusion operation with cyclists & XC skiers as clients.

Doesn't "Super Mario" & Cavendish have similar riding styles & career achievements? And as I mentioned previously, Cipollini was 36 when he won his last GT stage (Giro) & retired at 37.

www.cyclingnews.com

Report: Cipollini used 25 blood bags before 2003 Giro d'Italia | Cyclingnews.com

Gazzetta continues to detail alleged Fuentes doping programme
www.cyclingnews.com www.cyclingnews.com
Click to expand...
Yes but I don’t think Mario Cippolini from the EPO era is a fair comparison. I prefer to compare to whom he is racing against now. I am in the “if he’s doping he’s not doing anything the other top sprinters aren’t” camp. I certainly disagree that it is a weak sprinters field. It should also be noted that Cipo was a big guy - 189cm. Cavendish stands only 175cm. Different type of sprinter. Cippolini only finished a grand tour once - 1990 Giro.
 
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proffate

proffate

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Cookster15 said:
It is not a weak field.
Click to expand...
Really? Name a weaker TDF sprinting field from the last 10 years. How many total TDF stage wins do all the sprinters in this field aside from Cavendish have combined?

I say it's weak because Phillipsen, Groenwegen, Jakobsen and Kristoff are far from their best (Pedersen as well before he crashed); the two fastest men this year by all appearances, Merlier and Milan, are not even there. What would it take you to conclude it's a weak field?
 
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Nomad

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Cookster15 said:
Yes but I don’t think Mario Cippolini from the EPO era is a fair comparison. I prefer to compare to whom he is racing against now. I am in the “if he’s doping he’s not doing anything the other top sprinters aren’t” camp. I certainly disagree that it is a weak sprinters field. It should also be noted that Cipo was a big guy - 189cm. Cavendish stands only 175cm. Different type of sprinter. Cippolini only finished a grand tour once - 1990 Giro.
Click to expand...
Cipollini finished 6 Giros (90, 91, 92, 97, 01, 02). 3 points classicifications. 42 stage wins at the Giro, 12 at the Tour & 3 at the Vuelta. By comparison Cavendish finished 13 GTs & won 4 points classicifications (2 at the Tour & one each at the Giro & Vuelta).

The height to weight ratio is not that different between Cipo & Cav (6'2", 168 lbs/5'9", 154 lbs).

en.m.wikipedia.org

Mario Cipollini - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
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Nomad

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proffate said:
because it doesn't make the least bit of sense, and explaining that would probably make you feel bad, and I already dunked on you once
Click to expand...
Too funny - you think you "dunked" me because I posted the guys that finished in the top 10 of the stage that are "12 -15 years younger" than Cavendish asking a rhetorical question; how could 39 yr old legs out-sprint these young top pros. Lol

And are you saying van den Berg is some kind of a chump that shouldn't be a pro? I thought only the best & most talented riders make a World Tour team? And don't the best of those make up the roster of a TdF team? (For example, in other sports like the NFL only the best of the best of college talent make a team roster). 24 yr old van den Berg is listed as a "sprinter/puncheur," but I guess he has no business being his team's sprinter? Lol

Furthermore, do you have any scientific evidence that "sprint power doesn't drop that much by age 39?" Maybe there are some studies - I'd like to see them because it's my understanding that fast-twitch muscle fibers start declining with most elites in the early to mid-30s (this is pretty common with T&F 100/200m sprinters who's prime performance years are mid to late 20s).

You say Cavendish didn't "burn himself out" like the others. That doesn't make sense because he raced more than Cipollini & finished 13 GTs to only 6 GT finishes for Cipo (that's a lot of climbing big mountains for Cavendish. Lol). And yet Cipo won his last GT stage at 36 & was toast the following the year calling it a career at 37.

Cavendish was even better outperforming both Cipollini & Petacchi (there's an overlap of about 10 yrs where Petacchi & Cavendish competed together including a couple of years they rode together at Quickstep).

Mark Cavendish versus Mario Cipollini

Head to head career results between Mark Cavendish and Mario Cipollini. The overal score is 51.9% for Mark Cavendish versus 48.1% for Mario Cipollini. A comparison on same race results, time trial points and the points per age.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com

Mark Cavendish versus Alessandro Petacchi

Head to head career results between Mark Cavendish and Alessandro Petacchi. The overal score is 51.4% for Mark Cavendish versus 48.6% for Alessandro Petacchi. A comparison on same race results, time trial points and the points per age.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com

IMO, it would be nothing short of a "miracle" that a "clean" Cavendish outperformed two big-time, Hall of Fame level sprinters that were career dopers. Lol.
 
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SHAD0W93

SHAD0W93

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Nomad said:
Just like Cipollini, he's not interested in the points classicification. The two have similar career dynamics - prolific sprinters that hate the mountains. That being said, Cavendish has more points classicifications (4-3) & GT finishes (13-6) than Cipollini. And "Super Mario" was a "Super Doper," so I don't see how the "Manx Missile" could be anything close to clean.

www.cyclingnews.com

Report: Cipollini used 25 blood bags before 2003 Giro d'Italia | Cyclingnews.com

Gazzetta continues to detail alleged Fuentes doping programme
www.cyclingnews.com www.cyclingnews.com
Click to expand...
That’s not true that Cavendish isn’t interested in the points classification. He went for it at 2009 and 2010 Tour and most likely wins those years if he has a better head on his shoulders. Then he tried in 2012 and 2013 but Sagan was just that much better in addition to the Sky issues and Kittel the fastest the following year (and he’d tell you his pedals being different lengths). Cavendish also tried to win Giro points in 2012.

He’s more not interested if he isn’t winning to help get the points, otherwise he has sprinted at the intermediate every year bar the last two.
 
SHAD0W93

SHAD0W93

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Nomad said:
Too funny - you think you "dunked" me because I posted the guys that finished in the top 10 of the stage that are "12 -15 years younger" than Cavendish asking a rhetorical question; how could 39 yr old legs out-sprint these young top pros. Lol

And are you saying van den Berg is some kind of a chump that shouldn't be a pro? I thought only the best & most talented riders make a World Tour team? And don't the best of those make up the roster of a TdF team? (For example, in other sports like the NFL only the best of the best of college talent make a team roster). 24 yr old van den Berg is listed as a "sprinter/puncheur," but I guess he has no business being his team's sprinter? Lol

Furthermore, do you have any scientific evidence that "sprint power doesn't drop that much by age 39?" Maybe there are some studies - I'd like to see them because it's my understanding that fast-twitch muscle fibers start declining with most elites in the early to mid-30s (this is pretty common with T&F 100/200m sprinters who's prime performance years are mid to late 20s).

You say Cavendish didn't "burn himself out" like the others. That doesn't make sense because he raced more than Cipollini & finished 13 GTs to only 6 GT finishes for Cipo (that's a lot of climbing big mountains for Cavendish. Lol). And yet Cipo won his last GT stage at 36 & was toast the following the year calling it a career at 37.

Cavendish was even better outperforming both Cipollini & Petacchi (there's an overlap of about 10 yrs where Petacchi & Cavendish competed together including a couple of years they rode together at Quickstep).

Mark Cavendish versus Mario Cipollini

Head to head career results between Mark Cavendish and Mario Cipollini. The overal score is 51.9% for Mark Cavendish versus 48.1% for Mario Cipollini. A comparison on same race results, time trial points and the points per age.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com

Mark Cavendish versus Alessandro Petacchi

Head to head career results between Mark Cavendish and Alessandro Petacchi. The overal score is 51.4% for Mark Cavendish versus 48.6% for Alessandro Petacchi. A comparison on same race results, time trial points and the points per age.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com

IMO, it would be nothing short of a "miracle" that a "clean" Cavendish outperformed two big-time, Hall of Fame level sprinters that were career dopers. Lol.
Click to expand...
Cipo probably spent more time on the beach and in the bedroom instead of training to be fair.
 
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Leaning towards it being, let's say, "scripted" over him doing some rocket fuel mega boost for one day. It felt about as real as the stage last year in which Pinot rode at the front for an hour or two, only of course Cav actually won so let's say it felt about as real as if Pinout would have won that stage.

Not saying it's what happened but something off with it, maybe he just had a really good day(doped or not) but to me it felt different from that, like watching a movie or similiar with a forgone conclusion.
 
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SHAD0W93

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Psycat said:
Leaning towards it being, let's say, "scripted" over him doing some rocket fuel mega boost for one day. It felt about as real as the stage last year in which Pinout rode at the front for an hour or two, only of course Cav actually won so let's say it felt about as real as if Pinout would have won that stage.

Not saying it's what happened but something off with it, maybe he just had a really good day(doped or not) but to me it felt different from that, like watching a movie or similiar with a forgone conclusion.
Click to expand...
Hard to say it’s scripted the route he had to take in order to contest the sprint. His best chance of a win was always at the beginning since the climbs will take the fire out of his legs. He just also looked like he didn’t want to push anything anymore to avoid a crash since he got the win. Above all he wants to finish the race as well. Doesn’t mean he isn’t doping, he just got that one in a million with everything going his way and he took a better line than Philipsen.
 
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samhocking

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To be fair he achieved everything he came to do this year and the project completed so could be an element of nothing more to achieve in sprinting terms. To me he appears to be taking almost zero risk compared to the huge risks he took to get the record. I have a feeling reaching Nice, happy, well and still racing is actually quite a big goal too. He is racer, but nothing to gain doing a Roglic.
 
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