There is no way Cancellera is Clean!

[D-Queued]

Cancellara hasn't even attempted the hour record yet. Besides advances in technology are available today that haven't been outlawed by the UCI (yet) that may well account for 3 to 5km/h increase in average speed.

It really baffles me how the great Eddy stipulates the benchmark of performance. There's no other sport where some dude from 40 years ago on pre-historic equipment is regarded as the ultimate performer by some of its followers. Trainig methodology and equipment, importance of recovery, nutrition, technology, wind tunnel testing are just some of the areas where enormous gains have been made since Eddy the dinosaur.

And you in all honesty regard anyone capable of holding a 50k average in 2011 as a proven doper??? - You're pathetic!

Ok, I agree. I am pathetic.

Now can we have a rational conversation?

Dave.

 

[function]

Cancellara is a stronger time triallist so using Merckx as an upper limit makes no sense, even discounting all the advances in technology.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Ok, I agree. I am pathetic.

Now can we have a rational conversation?

Dave.

I bet not.

 

[ricara]

Cancellara hasn't even attempted the hour record yet. Besides advances in technology are available today that haven't been outlawed by the UCI (yet) that may well account for 3 to 5km/h increase in average speed.

It really baffles me how the great Eddy stipulates the benchmark of performance. There's no other sport where some dude from 40 years ago on pre-historic equipment is regarded as the ultimate performer by some of its followers. Trainig methodology and equipment, importance of recovery, nutrition, technology, wind tunnel testing are just some of the areas where enormous gains have been made since Eddy the dinosaur.

And you in all honesty regard anyone capable of holding a 50k average in 2011 as a proven doper??? - You're pathetic!

Well, as good old Stephen Roche used to say, "'ere's da t'ing o' da deal. Da deal was dere wuz two hunner't guys tryin' ta win dis race. An I'm da guy who's won."

Simple, no?

Same thing with Eddy and Fabian. One place where there have been "big" improvements" have been bikes and helmets. But remember that the rider is at least 80% of the drag. So if the bike improves 10%, then that is really only an overall gain of 2%. And Fabian is not riding his TT bike with the disc wheels (by far the biggest improvement in aerodynamics) in the classics!

Eddy didn't need no stinkin' wind tunnel to get a good aero position. In fact you can just look at him (check out his hour record ride on YouTube), his position is far more aero than Fabian's or anybody's in the modern peloton. (Same is true of LeMond by the way -- I don't know what is wrong with these riders' coaches when they can't even teach them how to ride in an aero position...)

And I don't believe for one minute that all this PowerGoo junk is any better for performance (or recovery) than a ham-and-cream cheese biscuit like the old guy put in their musettes.

And Dave said that Eddy may have been "juiced" for his hour record. What "juice" did they have back then that could make you ride faster for an hour? Not EPO, that's for sure.

I'm with Dave on this one. Anything over 49, maybe 50 km/hr is suspicious in my book.

 

[mad black]

Well, as good old Stephen Roche used to say, "'ere's da t'ing o' da deal. Da deal was dere wuz two hunner't guys tryin' ta win dis race. An I'm da guy who's won."

Simple, no?

Same thing with Eddy and Fabian. One place where there have been "big" improvements" have been bikes and helmets. But remember that the rider is at least 80% of the drag. So if the bike improves 10%, then that is really only an overall gain of 2%. And Fabian is not riding his TT bike with the disc wheels (by far the biggest improvement in aerodynamics) in the classics!

Eddy didn't need no stinkin' wind tunnel to get a good aero position. In fact you can just look at him (check out his hour record ride on YouTube), his position is far more aero than Fabian's or anybody's in the modern peloton. (Same is true of LeMond by the way -- I don't know what is wrong with these riders' coaches when they can't even teach them how to ride in an aero position...)

And I don't believe for one minute that all this PowerGoo junk is any better for performance (or recovery) than a ham-and-cream cheese biscuit like the old guy put in their musettes.

And Dave said that Eddy may have been "juiced" for his hour record. What "juice" did they have back then that could make you ride faster for an hour? Not EPO, that's for sure.

I'm with Dave on this one. Anything over 49, maybe 50 km/hr is suspicious in my book.

Ok, I'll race on a 2011 state of the art race bike (carbon fibre, aero deep section carbon tubulars, STI's, clipless pedals, 6.8kg) against you on a 1970's steel bike weighing in at 9kg with 32 spoke box section aluminum rims, downtube shifters and pedal hooks and you in all honesty believe the difference won't be more than 2%???

Sorry, but to me there's nothing suspicious about that!

 

[D-Queued]

Ok, I'll race on a 2011 state of the art race bike (carbon fibre, aero deep section carbon tubulars, STI's, clipless pedals, 6.8kg) against you on a 1970's steel bike weighing in at 9kg with 32 spoke box section aluminum rims, downtube shifters and pedal hooks and you in all honesty believe the difference won't be more than 2%???

Sorry, but to me there's nothing suspicious about that!

How much time have you spent in the wind tunnel? I have tested with Armstrong's Reve 3 helmet, Indurain's helmet and LeMond's helmet. I have tested TT bikes from the same three, plus Cervelo. I have tested the TT bars for the same three. And, I have tested Zips, Discs, tri-spokes, 32 spokes, Ksyriums, etc., etc. I have even tested Nike's speed suit.

Yes, there is a difference. No question. But, some things are not as much as you might think.

Most importantly, however, have you spent time with the power, speed and wind and road resistance equations?

Do you understand the exponential nature of resistance at these speeds?

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

this chart might help some with arguments;

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_urSQl6wUA5g/TTZFTUOs6FI/AAAAAAAAIe8/zeE_bHhBpOE/s1600/drag_chart.jpg

taken from here

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/

as a guide cosybeehive is an intelligent well thought out blog and he is a member but not been here for a while ttbomk.

another reference can be found here

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/aero/aerodynamics.htm


as an aside, if people wanted to make TTs really fair, i would make the TT bike a standardised bike, ie every single bike the exact same, same frame(to size for rider), same aero bars, wheels, etc...and the riders ability on the bike be the difference.

 

[ricara]

Ok, I'll race on a 2011 state of the art race bike (carbon fibre, aero deep section carbon tubulars, STI's, clipless pedals, 6.8kg) against you on a 1970's steel bike weighing in at 9kg with 32 spoke box section aluminum rims, downtube shifters and pedal hooks and you in all honesty believe the difference won't be more than 2%???

Boy, are you clueless!

Eddy set his hour record in Mexico City. The altitude was somewhere around 8000 feet where there is 20% less air resistance than at sea level. Think about that for a minute.

Eddy rode on a TRACK. Smooth as glass. No pebbles or glass, so he could pump up his tires to 140 psi or beyond.

Eddy rode on a TRACK BIKE. Since it seems you have never seen a track bike, you should note that they don't have downtube shifters. In fact, they don't even have gears. Moron.

Eddy's track bike was reported to have weighed about 13 pound, as I recall. I believe that Ernesto Colnago made it personally for Eddy. But weight doesn't make much difference in a flat time trial. And you can't get any flatter than a track...

EDIT: Oh, and there WERE clipless pedals back then. Cinelli made some, and so did another company. They weren't the "pop-out" ski-binding style that ski-binding manufacturer Look made popular. Instead they had a sliding pin that locked you into the pedal. They were only intended for track racing. I'm not sure, but Eddy may have used the Cinellis for his hour record. Go look at the YouTube video and you tell me.

 

[D-Queued]

Boy, are you clueless!

Eddy set his hour record in Mexico City. The altitude was somewhere around 8000 feet where there is 20% less air resistance than at sea level. Think about that for a minute.

Eddy rode on a TRACK. Smooth as glass. No pebbles or glass, so he could pump up his tires to 140 psi or beyond.

Eddy rode on a TRACK BIKE. Since it seems you have never seen a track bike, you should note that they don't have downtube shifters. In fact, they don't even have gears. Moron.

Eddy's track bike was reported to have weighed about 13 pound, as I recall. I believe that Ernesto Colnago made it personally for Eddy. But weight doesn't make much difference in a flat time trial. And you can't get any flatter than a track...

EDIT: Oh, and there WERE clipless pedals back then. Cinelli made some, and so did another company. They weren't the "pop-out" ski-binding style that ski-binding manufacturer Look made popular. Instead they had a sliding pin that locked you into the pedal. They were only intended for track racing. I'm not sure, but Eddy may have used the Cinellis for his hour record. Go look at the YouTube video and you tell me.

20% less.

You don't say.

Anyone recall what the advantage of EPO is?

Buehler... Buehler...

I will say it again.

Anyone that rides faster than 49 kph without the advantage of:
1. Short course
2. Downhill
3. Tailwind

Is suspect. Not indicted, but suspect.

How much extra power is required to go 10% faster than that, at sea level, on standard road surface?

Go ahead and try and adjust for TT bars & helmet. You will be shocked at the answer.

As noted, I have lots of wind tunnel data on different wheels, frames, clothes, helmets, and TT bars - including from one of the same tunnels used for Lance's equipment refinement. I can even provide you with absolute and comparative drag coefficients.

Dave.