Teams & Riders Thibaut Pinot discussion thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Viviani laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[jaylew]

That list is an horrific example financial mismanagement & teams living in the past. Pogacar, Alaphilippe & van Aert are worth their top 10 salary, whilst the rest? No. And the fact all those other names are ahead of Roglic is pretty shocking tbh.

For now, from that top 10 I'd say Bernal is also worth it. His Giro performance may confirm or dispute that.

 

[BigCoward]

You do understand contracts aren't updated on a monthly basis? Apart from Froome that was their value when they signed their contracts.
Are you advocating ineos, for example, say 'G, sh1te results last year, we are going to pay you less than your contract promises'. He was a 32 year old defending TdF champ. He got paid what he was due for the next 3 years.

 

[Rackham]

You do understand contracts aren't updated on a monthly basis? Apart from Froome that was their value when they signed their contracts.
Are you advocating ineos, for example, say 'G, sh1te results last year, we are going to pay you less than your contract promises'. He was a 32 year old defending TdF champ. He got paid what he was due for the next 3 years.

Are 35 year Tour de France champs/contenders something normal? No. So don't act like a 3 year contract for a 32 year old on that sort of money is something totally normal in cycling. For example it was totally unusual & not the "norm" when Cadel Evans won the Tour when he was 34, so it wasn't like Sky were investing in the future.

The whole point is some of the wages never made sense even when they were signed due to age & form factors. And unlike football where an aged star can still be an attraction, in cycling when someone drops off the back of the peloton/favorites group, they're off TV as well.

 

[Rackham]

And no offense to G Thomas or any of those other guys, good for them. Hell, everyone would take that contract if someone offered it.

But the proof is in the pudding (in this instance, on the road), i.e. they're getting comprehensively beaten (or trounced tbh) by (usually younger, but not always) faster riders.

And none of it is "surprising" either. Those guys (Bardet at 2 million? Really? i.e. a contract at DSM signed just last year) haven't been top guys in races for a while.

 

[BigCoward]

Are 35 year Tour de France champs/contenders something normal? No. So don't act like a 3 year contract for a 32 year old on that sort of money is something totally normal in cycling. For example it was totally unusual & not the "norm" when Cadel Evans won the Tour when he was 34, so it wasn't like Sky were investing in the future.

The whole point is some of the wages never made sense even when they were signed due to age & form factors. And unlike football where an aged star can still be an attraction, in cycling when someone drops off the back of the peloton/favorites group, they're off TV as well.

He probably would have won the giro last year if he hadn't crashed. And he hasn't completed his main objective for this year. So whats your point? Stop doubling down, you said something daft. Concede the point, move on and stop digging.

 

[RedheadDane]

And, anyway. Pinot's contract - signed last year, BTW - was probably based on his performance during the 2019 TdF, before his injury.

 

[Rackham]

He probably would have won the giro last year if he hadn't crashed. And he hasn't completed his main objective for this year. So whats your point? Stop doubling down, you said something daft. Concede the point, move on and stop digging.

Just because a few guys in a cycling forum disagreed, I won't take that as any indication or proof of me posting "daftness" tbh.

If someone wants to pretend the list posted on the previous page is totally par of the course & stuff like that was normal 20 + years ago, be my guests. You guys can choose to believe whatever, whenever, I don't care.

 

[BigCoward]

Just because a few guys in a cycling forum disagreed, I won't take that as any indication or proof of me posting "daftness" tbh.

If someone wants to pretend the list posted on the previous page is totally par of the course & stuff like that was normal 20 + years ago, be my guests. You guys can choose to believe whatever, whenever, I don't care.

But you are looking at the salaries now, not based on when they were signed. Except Fooome, the majority of the rest were decent value.

 

[Netserk]

Just because a few guys in a cycling forum disagreed, I won't take that as any indication or proof of me posting "daftness" tbh.

If someone wants to pretend the list posted on the previous page is totally par of the course & stuff like that was normal 20 + years ago, be my guests. You guys can choose to believe whatever, whenever, I don't care.

What do you think Ullrich's last contract was worth? Riis's? Armstrong's after his comeback? Any reason to believe they weren't paid top dollar?

 

[tobydawq]

Just because a few guys in a cycling forum disagreed, I won't take that as any indication or proof of me posting "daftness" tbh.

If someone wants to pretend the list posted on the previous page is totally par of the course & stuff like that was normal 20 + years ago, be my guests. You guys can choose to believe whatever, whenever, I don't care.

Lol. We are all clearly clueless because we point out that you're wrong.

 

[topcat]

I'm all in favour of wrong interpretations. It certainly makes life more interesting.

 

[BigCoward]

Also its not that these people are paid too much, its that everyone else is paid too little.

 

[jaylew]

My big takeaway from that list - a stint with QS can do wonders for a bunch sprinter's bank account. Viviani and Gaviria are the only ones who made that list and neither of them has won a WT race since 2019 or sniffed a win of any kind this year.

 

[roundabout]

For a team that allegedly was paying Aru 2.6 million last year, I kind of expected Kristoff to be somewhere in the lower reaches of the top 20 given that he signed his contract during the run of finishing top-20 in CQ points for 6 years (and 5 of them in the top 10).

 

[Kazistuta]

Maybe it's time to open a separate thread about this. It's an interesting discussion, but this is going a tad off-topic now.

 

[RedheadDane]

Maybe it's time to open a separate thread about this. It's an interesting discussion, but this is going a tad off-topic now.

Yeah... I've been thinking the same. Even my attempt at bringing the focus back on topic didn't quite work.

 

[IndianCyclist]

It looks like this season may be a total write off for him if not career ending. I hope not. Anyway with Pogacar and Roglic and so many explosive climbers , winning is out of question

 

[RedheadDane]

I'm not quite so pessimistic. His performance in the final ITT of T-A was encouraging, and it's hard to make a judgement of his form based on his placement in the GC of that race, when he was never actually riding for the GC. Though, it was kind of weird to read the FDJ reports, and see how their possibly biggest star was basically mentioned as an after-thought.
Now, according to PCS his next race is Tour of the Alps, and I suppose that'll be the real test to see whether he's in a good enough shape to go for GC in the Giro - or, indeed, even ride the Giro. Hopefully, he will be able to ride the Giro, but I think if the GC starts slipping away, it might be better to drop out of it - but not the race - completely, and go stage-hunting, maybe a sneaky little KoM jersey (or just the regular KoM jersey), rather than struggle on for a place in the top-20ish, and I do vaguely recall reading a while back, that he no longer wants to be the sole leader in GTs, so FDJ are likely to bring a squad with enough "back-up" options, in case he completely falls through.

 

[BlueRoads]

I'm not quite so pessimistic. His performance in the final ITT of T-A was encouraging, and it's hard to make a judgement of his form based on his placement in the GC of that race, when he was never actually riding for the GC. Though, it was kind of weird to read the FDJ reports, and see how their possibly biggest star was basically mentioned as an after-thought.
Now, according to PCS his next race is Tour of the Alps, and I suppose that'll be the real test to see whether he's in a good enough shape to go for GC in the Giro - or, indeed, even ride the Giro. Hopefully, he will be able to ride the Giro, but I think if the GC starts slipping away, it might be better to drop out of it - but not the race - completely, and go stage-hunting, maybe a sneaky little KoM jersey (or just the regular KoM jersey), rather than struggle on for a place in the top-20ish, and I do vaguely recall reading a while back, that he no longer wants to be the sole leader in GTs, so FDJ are likely to bring a squad with enough "back-up" options, in case he completely falls through.

I find it very hard to assess this, because it's about medical stuff. But looking at it as an outsider, I would give up on the Giro at all and get this back problem sorted out properly. He's young enough for that. I can't see a three-weeks-race helping. And I don't see him near the top of the Giro like this anyway.

 

[RedheadDane]

But if his back issues have already been solved, and now it's all about base form?

 

[BlueRoads]

But if his back issues have already been solved, and now it's all about base form?

Then it would be different. Did they say anything?

 

[RedheadDane]

Then it would be different. Did they say anything?

There's this from last week (full link on previous page):

Also, this stage was for Thibaut Pinot the most anticipated one in Tirreno-Adriatico, since it could allow him and the team to know more about the evolution of his physical condition. His ranking (34th at 4’58) enabled his sports director Sébastien Joly to take stock of the situation. “There was no miracle,” he said, “but we could expect it. We figured he was going to be in this range, between 30th and 40th place. He’s where we expected him to be. It follows logically with the Classic de l’Ardèche and the Trofeo Laigueglia. Thibaut manages to make efforts, but comes a time when he needs to recover a little before getting back to his pace. His level is stable. It’s not disastrous, but it’s obviously not going the way he would like.”

 

[BlueRoads]

There's this from last week (full link on previous page):

But would you interprete it in the way that his back is okay now?

 

[RedheadDane]

But would you interprete it in the way that his back is okay now?

I suppose it could be interpreted either way. They do use the phrase his level is stable, which - at least to me - indicate that they're talking about, well, basic level-things. However, there is also the mention of need[ing] to recover a little, and I guess that could both mean that he is not quite (or was not quite) at his best level in terms of shape yet, or - unfortunately - that his back still hurts sometimes.

And with all that being said, I don't think - as IndianCyclist seems to imply - that he'll break his contract, and quit early. However, I could see a situation where his current contract (running to the end of 2023) ends up being his last, I'd hope not, but I wouldn't be overly shocked.