Thor's book

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May 19, 2010
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Armchaircyclist said:
"If we can exclude altitude-training, I see no ther explanation then epo/blood doping"

- How can we exclude altitude-training ? And we definitely do not know who the athlete is, so discussing this like we know it is Hushovd, seems really stupid.
Drange picked that case and that communication for a reason. He wanted a good example of how an expert described a blood profile he himself thought suspicious. He omits some sentences [(...)], probably because they are not helpful in explaining the case to laymen or because they give too much information about who NN is. Drange knows who the athlete is, the expert doesn't. Drange picked this case and these parts of analysis because they hit the mark. It was an athlete that hadn't had not been at altitude at the time of the test and who had a big competition comming up, if not Drange would not have chosen that case for the book. The expert hit the bullseye.

The athlete is a Norwegian with a big competion primo April. What kind of endurance (we are talking about oxygen vector doping) athletes have big competions primo April? Road cyclists does. Who else? Rowers? Long/middle distance runners? Race walkers? MTB'ers? Certainly not biathletes, cross country skiers or speed skaters.
 
Oct 1, 2010
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neineinei said:
Who else? Rowers?
Definitely not rowers as the season pretty much doesn't start until May. Most are still out of shape for the first regattas and won't peak until early June, and then again in late August. There is also no way a Norwegian WC level rower wouldn't train at altitude to prepare for a big competition.

Besides, rowing is as clean a sport as you get, probably due to the fact that there is hardly any money involved. I personally know rowing world champions who are dependent on scholarships to finance their careers.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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neineinei said:
Drange picked that case and that communication for a reason. He wanted a good example of how an expert described a blood profile he himself thought suspicious. He omits some sentences [(...)], probably because they are not helpful in explaining the case to laymen or because they give too much information about who NN is. Drange knows who the athlete is, the expert doesn't. Drange picked this case and these parts of analysis because they hit the mark. It was an athlete that hadn't had not been at altitude at the time of the test and who had a big competition comming up, if not Drange would not have chosen that case for the book. The expert hit the bullseye.

The athlete is a Norwegian with a big competion primo April. What kind of endurance (we are talking about oxygen vector doping) athletes have big competions primo April? Road cyclists does. Who else? Rowers? Long/middle distance runners? Race walkers? MTB'ers? Certainly not biathletes, cross country skiers or speed skaters.
LouieLouie said:
Definitely not rowers as the season pretty much doesn't start until May. Most are still out of shape for the first regattas and won't peak until early June, and then again in late August. There is also no way a Norwegian WC level rower wouldn't train at altitude to prepare for a big competition.

Besides, rowing is as clean a sport as you get, probably due to the fact that there is hardly any money involved. I personally know rowing world champions who are dependent on scholarships to finance their careers.
The Festival of May <strikethru> has been delayed for the Festival of April.

This is the Roman calendar. I am curious about the Chinese calendar or the jewish calender. What weeks did the Norkse god pick out to target? Flangers, Wevelgem, Roubaix.

What about Harelbeke. Always seemed a soft semi-classic of repute after Dreidaagse van de Panne


rowing? money? Australians? peaches mango peaches.

good grief

sounds legit
 
Dec 7, 2010
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LouieLouie said:
Besides, rowing is as clean a sport as you get, probably due to the fact that there is hardly any money involved. I personally know rowing world champions who are dependent on scholarships to finance their careers.
They should switch over to U.S. Masters racing or Italian Grand Fondos. That's where all the big bucks are.
 
May 19, 2010
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Hushovd claims he has seen very little doping. At one occation he saw a rider from another team with a syringe in his arm in a hotel room. That's it. In February 2013 he claimed to not have read USADAs reasoned decision on the Armstrong case (he says Armstrong hadn't gotten the verdict), and says the journalists knows much more about it (doping in cycling, Armstrongs doping) than he does. So he doesn't follow the doping news.

Still he says he thinks Riis has more dark doping secrets. Why does he think that? He otherwise doesn't see or hear anything. Even when it is blasted all over the news and skeletons falls out of the closets all over the place, he doesn't really notice.

If we are to believe all this the only explanation would be if the acquaintance whose hotel room he walked into without knocking on the door was someone on Bjarnes team. Thors best man when he married was Jens. Was it Jens's room he stepped into only to see a rider sit on the bed with a syringe in his arm and five teammates sitting around him? Then he would have reason to think Riis have been up to more than he has admitted to.

And Andy says Thor was right in not going to the anti-doping authorities over Armstrongs admission.
 
Jul 16, 2012
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neineinei said:
Drange picked that case and that communication for a reason. He wanted a good example of how an expert described a blood profile he himself thought suspicious. He omits some sentences [(...)], probably because they are not helpful in explaining the case to laymen or because they give too much information about who NN is. Drange knows who the athlete is, the expert doesn't. Drange picked this case and these parts of analysis because they hit the mark. It was an athlete that hadn't had not been at altitude at the time of the test and who had a big competition comming up, if not Drange would not have chosen that case for the book. The expert hit the bullseye.

The athlete is a Norwegian with a big competion primo April. What kind of endurance (we are talking about oxygen vector doping) athletes have big competions primo April? Road cyclists does. Who else? Rowers? Long/middle distance runners? Race walkers? MTB'ers? Certainly not biathletes, cross country skiers or speed skaters.
--------------------

Let say I agree that it is most likely a cyclist. We have a known doper from the same era that has just recently confessed, ex us-postal rider Steffen Kjærgård. Is it less likely that the tests are of this guy ? Confessed epo-user..
 
Apr 13, 2011
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neineinei said:
There was a higly anomal value on April 1 and the expert suggests that maybe the athlete in question had an important competition comming up. He then says that if the athlete hasn't been at altitude the only explanation would be EPO or blood transfusion.

The athletes blood profile from earlier years are described by the expert to be typical of micro dosing EPO. And: This is typical for an athlete who has been using EPO for many years and only stopped the last few years. Why would a cross country skier well versed in EPO use, who knew to cut back and adjust his doping when he was getting exposed to blood monitoring and improved testing risk getting elevated blood values in April?
"Expert?"" What expert? The so-called experts are all stupid and naive and have no idea in reality. The term "micro-dosing" is one the dopers/their doctors came up with on how to get benefit and improve HCT. How do you think athletes got away with doping all of those years? There isn't enough money around to give people bribes to fake/cover for that many positives.

The reality is, the "experts" didn't know jack sh&t until guys like Hamilton, Landis etc..explained in detail exactly how they were doping.

Unless they get stone cold positives, they still haven't busted anybody straight up except very few with legit positive during a test. Tierne Locke etc...never tested positive, just had anomalies that were "indicative" of doping. Haha...Experts still haven't a clue.

Anyway, I found it interesting after Thor's big solo win at the TDF on his Cevelo S5, yes, the picture of him coming across the line arms in the air on it that Cervelo/Garmin plastered all over. And after that...Thor got a mystery "virus" (coincidence how the doping hammer came down harder/testing etc...with the timing on that) and his performance went from Thor the Hammer, to where the heck is Thor for the past 1-2 seasons.

Don't even want to talk about the self-serving Tygart with his idiotic comments and statements just to keep the spotlight on him and keep getting his government funded paycheck thanks to the public taxpayer.
 
zigmeister said:
"Expert?"" What expert? The so-called experts are all stupid and naive and have no idea in reality. The term "micro-dosing" is one the dopers/their doctors came up with on how to get benefit and improve HCT. How do you think athletes got away with doping all of those years? There isn't enough money around to give people bribes to fake/cover for that many positives.

The reality is, the "experts" didn't know jack sh&t until guys like Hamilton, Landis etc..explained in detail exactly how they were doping.

Unless they get stone cold positives, they still haven't busted anybody straight up except very few with legit positive during a test. Tierne Locke etc...never tested positive, just had anomalies that were "indicative" of doping. Haha...Experts still haven't a clue.

Anyway, I found it interesting after Thor's big solo win at the TDF on his Cevelo S5, yes, the picture of him coming across the line arms in the air on it that Cervelo/Garmin plastered all over. And after that...Thor got a mystery "virus" (coincidence how the doping hammer came down harder/testing etc...with the timing on that) and his performance went from Thor the Hammer, to where the heck is Thor for the past 1-2 seasons.

Don't even want to talk about the self-serving Tygart with his idiotic comments and statements just to keep the spotlight on him and keep getting his government funded paycheck thanks to the public taxpayer.
Excellent post. Game, set, and match Zigmeister.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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neineinei said:
The word april and 200x-200x was redacted in the first print version of the book (Den store dopingbløffen by Mads Drange), but it is not redacted in the e-book version of the book.



versus
those two paragraphs are from two different cases

so you can't crosscheck the 200x and 200x and the 1st of April, not based on that anyway
 
workingclasshero said:
those two paragraphs are from two different cases

so you can't crosscheck the 200x and 200x and the 1st of April, not based on that anyway
Given NN was used in both it seems very much to be about the same case.

Why are you saying it's two different cases?
 
neineinei said:
None of it makes sense. If they sack Vaughters (as if they could) why would he then say he rejected the offer because he couldn't stand the thought of having to work with him anymore? Maybe there is some grain of something somewhere in the story, but the details doesn't add up.
This thread just got bumped so reading back...

You need to be careful here, the story does add up (whether its true or not is another thing).

Jonathan Vaughters is not the owner of Garmin.

He is a shareholder or member of Slipstream Sports LLC which appoints him as “General Manager” of the Garmin Cycling team. As Slipstream is a LLC it is required to have a board of owners/members whom make the appointments and as such they can revoke or discontinue an appointment per a vote or agreement. One owner is not immune to removal of appointment by the remainder. Being an owner doesn’t provide the privilege to do as you please.

Thus there is validity to Thor’s comments and it is possible that this “arrangement” was discussed in removing Vaughters from the role of General Manager at Garmin but he would remain at Slipstream LLC due to him being a valid member. Therefore he’d still be involved to a degree and that Thor could not work in that environment.

In terms of Vaughters management style at Garmin it’s hard to say whether this is just a basic employee/manager conflict or endemic of something more systemic.

Sep Vanmarcke’s cousin posted on slowtwitch Sep’s experience with the management style which is in line with Hushovd’s (NB: usual grains of salt applied to such postings):

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=5170200#5170200

When my cousin rode for Garmin it was very obvious there was no team spirit. Racing was more like a 'job' where you did what you were told to do. When Sep won the Omloop het NIeuwsblad he wasn't even allowed to race for himself originally, and had to call his manager to talk to Vaughters. It's just an example about a distant relationship with awkward communication between people. The rest of the riders would also never meet with each other or train together, they only looked at each other as coworkers who would work together during certain races. THat's why he loves Belkin now - while they don't have any rockstars on the team, they really ride as a team and a big group of friends including the staff. Very different dynamic.
 
May 26, 2010
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thehog said:
.....

In terms of Vaughters management style at Garmin it’s hard to say whether this is just a basic employee/manager conflict or endemic of something more systemic.

Sep Vanmarcke’s cousin posted on slowtwitch Sep’s experience with the management style which is in line with Hushovd’s (NB: usual grains of salt applied to such postings):

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=5170200#5170200
I think Garmin are doing slightly better in the winning stakes compared to Belkin. Maybe the friendly atmosphere and a lack of working one is to blame. Too many training rides finish at Amsterdam cafés, maybe........:D

JV is a strange character, no doubt, but Garmin are doing pretty ok win wise. I think JV doesn't allow egos, so maybe those with an ego suffered.
 
Benotti69 said:
I think Garmin are doing slightly better in the winning stakes compared to Belkin. Maybe the friendly atmosphere and a lack of working one is to blame. Too many training rides finish at Amsterdam cafés, maybe........:D

JV is a strange character, no doubt, but Garmin are doing pretty ok win wise. I think JV doesn't allow egos, so maybe those with an ego suffered.
Well JV could have been one of those egos and was about to be removed from team management by the LLC.

It's Ellis's money after all along with the sponsors. The have a say in how the team is run and if managment styles go against the objectives they can act.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
I think Garmin are doing slightly better in the winning stakes compared to Belkin. Maybe the friendly atmosphere and a lack of working one is to blame. Too many training rides finish at Amsterdam cafés, maybe........:D

JV is a strange character, no doubt, but Garmin are doing pretty ok win wise. I think JV doesn't allow egos, so maybe those with an ego suffered.
Yup, it is Professional bike racing, not a summer camp.

The sponsor Thor is referring to is Cervelo. Gerard loved Thor and treated him with the level of adulation he felt he deserved. Gerard is a good guy, great bike designer and marketer.....terrible businessman. He said lots of nice words to his buddy Thor but by that time he had zero control of his former business. Thor likes to pretend he spared JV but the reality is he never had the power and jumped to BMC for the 3 years of massive money they gave him.
 
Dazed and Confused said:
It would appear the force in Thor's hammer wasn't all that impressive.
The force of his bank account was the hammer. Thor was full of it. But I'm not sure JV is any better in the manner in which he has danced around issues over the years.

I'd put them both in the same corner.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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Netserk said:
Given NN was used in both it seems very much to be about the same case.

Why are you saying it's two different cases?
Because it is clearly stated in the book!

NN just means "I don't know the name" (well, originally latin nomen nescio), it is not short for "Nessie Newman" or "Numb Nicholas" or some other name.
 
workingclasshero said:
Because it is clearly stated in the book!

NN just means "I don't know the name" (well, originally latin nomen nescio), it is not short for "Nessie Newman" or "Numb Nicholas" or some other name.
Can you quote the part that clearly states that? (Original or English are both fine)
 
Jun 21, 2009
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Netserk said:
Can you quote the part that clearly states that? (Original or English are both fine)
"He made the following comments on three of them [the bloodprofiles]:"


and then we get the three paragraphs where the expert passes comment on each of the three bloodprofiles.
 
I was in Norway when his book came out and can tell you he got nothing but dogs abuse for NOT having ratted on Lance at the time.
Reminded me a bit of the Charlie Wigelius book, where he gets judged in the court of public opinion in the country he rides for, yet actually, his values are shaped by the teams and peloton he lives with most of the year.
And Joe Public doesn't understand pro cycling.
I think he'd have better keeping his mouth shut, but of course that just reinforces omertà.
It's not a good encouragement for other riders to come out and say what they knew when though, is it?
 
Jul 11, 2013
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coinneach said:
I was in Norway when his book came out and can tell you he got nothing but dogs abuse for NOT having ratted on Lance at the time.
Reminded me a bit of the Charlie Wigelius book, where he gets judged in the court of public opinion in the country he rides for, yet actually, his values are shaped by the teams and peloton he lives with most of the year.
And Joe Public doesn't understand pro cycling.
I think he'd have better keeping his mouth shut, but of course that just reinforces omertà.
It's not a good encouragement for other riders to come out and say what they knew when though, is it?
Yes.. Honesty is good. The problem lies in the truth....

The truth is that Thor said he had no regrets for not ratting out.
Of course he hasn't, things turned out very well for him..
Thor is not a noboby so when he teaches silence it is a bad sign.

The only consequense of including the Armstrong admission in his book
Is, well, probably more sold books... Wonder if that's a coincidence..
 

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