Thor's book

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Aug 21, 2012
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Please dont derail this thread by discussing forum-history guys.

Thor has had some really awkward quotes to the press lately, more than enough to support the general sentiment of the early posts of this thread, stuff like:
-"Norwegians have been so naive", while he himself didn't think Lance was doping untill Lance told him so himself, and then kept quiet about it and also blacklists journalists asking questions about doping.
-"Anti-doping Norway is not doing a good enough job", while he himself has not been cooperating at all (Anita Valen, female former road cyclist, wrote an opinion piece today which pretty much said the same thing: "Athletes should not snitch").
-"We should stop the witch hunt of ex-dopers", while he himself argues for lifetime bans of all caught dopers. Clearly a double standard.

ToreBear: Are these quotes and double standards really not worthy a great amount of criticism and scepticism towards Thor?
 
Aug 9, 2012
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torkil said:
Please dont derail this thread by discussing forum-history guys.

Thor has had some really awkward quotes to the press lately, more than enough to support the general sentiment of the early posts of this thread, stuff like:
-"Norwegians have been so naive", while he himself didn't think Lance was doping untill Lance told him so himself, and then kept quiet about it and also blacklists journalists asking questions about doping.
-"Anti-doping Norway is not doing a good enough job", while he himself has not been cooperating at all (Anita Valen, female former road cyclist, wrote an opinion piece today which pretty much said the same thing: "Athletes should not snitch").
-"We should stop the witch hunt of ex-dopers", while he himself argues for lifetime bans of all caught dopers. Clearly a double standard.

ToreBear: Are these quotes and double standards really not worthy a great amount of criticism and scepticism towards Thor?
Yeah. I'm kind of a stickler for accuracy in forming opinions. Thats kind of a fault I have I guess.

Hell, If I'm going to keep arguing like this I want to get paid. Does Thor have a "charity" that pays people to argue on the Internet? I'm not going to be cheap labor, but PM me if anyone is still interested.;)
 
Mar 13, 2009
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python said:
you are onto something here, still the cerebral miniscule you saw in him, i'd rather term it an intellectual dishonesty, though, he may consider himself a 'sophisticated version of such. he called people who saw through his nationalist bias all sorts of names - from deranged to the last one 'obtuse', with no glimmer of any reflection that the obtuse is the one who invariably and consistently takes one and only side of the story , despite the mountain of evidence, that his compatriots can and do dope.
us that AusCyclefan94? oh no, that is for Cuddles and Australians. If you ask ACf, they dont dope
 
Aug 21, 2012
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ToreBear said:
Yeah. I'm kind of a stickler for accuracy in forming opinions. Thats kind of a fault I have I guess.

Hell, If I'm going to keep arguing like this I want to get paid. Does Thor have a "charity" that pays people to argue on the Internet? I'm not going to be cheap labor, but PM me if anyone is still interested.;)
Which of my quotes lack accuracy in your opinion?
 
Aug 9, 2012
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torkil said:
Which of my quotes lack accuracy in your opinion?
I was referring to the earlier general discussion. If you pay me I might find some inaccuracies or alternate explanations in your quotes though. :p


Though I'd save my money since they are close enough.;)
 
May 26, 2010
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ToreBear said:
Yeah. I'm kind of a stickler for accuracy in forming opinions. Thats kind of a fault I have I guess.
So you should find that Thor is an ******* after reading his book.

As for accuracy, not sure Thor applies that.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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ToreBear said:
Im not going to take the time to be trolled by you this time
yet you already took the time to deny and deflect not only my fact based exposures of your fanboy drivven logic, but also a half dozen other poster who directly called you a troll or exposed your trolling...

All you needed was to honestly admit that you are fan of the norwegian athletes and that your bias is not unique...in stead you go into more denials that apparently no one is buying. Try to post as a responsible adult sometimes and people will treat your fanboism more respectfully. Untill then, you will be considered the blind fanboy you are.

Almost everyone here already saw thru that.
 
Whinge bag Hushovd - I've never been a fan of him after he complained about Cavendish and got him demoted, he won the green jersey from that.

You;ve had your day in the sunshine Thor and got a lot more out of your career than most.

The likes of Armstrong may have dragged the sport through the s*&t but they did finally admit to their errors (even if it was forced upon them)
 
ToreBear said:
The problem is what the range of clean is. There are a number of things we don't know about that might be the cause of the artifacts we think are a sign of foul play.

I'm wide open to contributions and criticism regarding my views on this topic and I have been wrong before and have no problem being a wide range of wrong. For example, you narrowed my translated quote from Thor's federation leader. That's fine. Thank you.

But now, the "proof" arguments have escalated and none of it works at all.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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neineinei said:
There was a higly anomal value on April 1 and the expert suggests that maybe the athlete in question had an important competition comming up. He then says that if the athlete hasn't been at altitude the only explanation would be EPO or blood transfusion.

The athletes blood profile from earlier years are described by the expert to be typical of micro dosing EPO. And: This is typical for an athlete who has been using EPO for many years and only stopped the last few years. Why would a cross country skier well versed in EPO use, who knew to cut back and adjust his doping when he was getting exposed to blood monitoring and improved testing risk getting elevated blood values in April?
if we are talking out of season your crit will rise if you move into sedentary phase in off season
 
May 19, 2010
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blackcat said:
if we are talking out of season your crit will rise if you move into sedentary phase in off season
If you can exclude altitude stay, I see no other explanation for the increase in red blood cells than blood transfusions or EPO (...)
The blood profile is for several years. The 1 April (probably 2008) test values stands out. Compared to other years, not only to other tests that year.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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neineinei said:
The blood profile is for several years. The 1 April (probably 2008) test values stands out. Compared to other years, not only to other tests that year.
yeah, ok, i was just offering a devils advocate.you know it is not an apologia.
 
May 19, 2010
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ToreBear said:
Yep. And my arrogant self is the one who decides which books are more equal than others.:p
the whole discussion started with you telling Race Radio and anyone else that they shoudn't judge books just from qoutes from the Norwegian press. But the rules are clearly not the same for you. Maybe you should hold yourself to the same standars as you hold others, or just stop preaching.

The rest of your post is hogwash. The supply of explanations of bio passport anomaleties is endless. It usually only apply to athletes from ones own country though. When Russians gets caught the system is working. They do not get mood differences because of seasons change there.
 
Aug 9, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
I'm wide open to contributions and criticism regarding my views on this topic and I have been wrong before and have no problem being a wide range of wrong. For example, you narrowed my translated quote from Thor's federation leader. That's fine. Thank you.

But now, the "proof" arguments have escalated and none of it works at all.
Sorry I'm not sure I'm following you.:confused: I did not have any criticism towards your views. I mostly agree with them.

As for the federation leader. He has expressed himself quite clear previously in regards to doping. So much so that he was told to tone it down when he cast suspicions on Kjærgaards predecessor who at the time of Kjærgaards heiring as the Norwegian coach knew about Kjærgaards doping.

But that's another story I think we touched on in the Kjærgaard thread a while ago.


neineinei said:
the whole discussion started with you telling Race Radio and anyone else that they shoudn't judge books just from qoutes from the Norwegian press. But the rules are clearly not the same for you. Maybe you should hold yourself to the same standars as you hold others, or just stop preaching.

The rest of your post is hogwash. The supply of explanations of bio passport anomaleties is endless. It usually only apply to athletes from ones own country though. When Russians gets caught the system is working. They do not get mood differences because of seasons change there.
No I said they shouldn't be so sure that the quotes they read would not have a different meaning if the context was included.

I try to apply the same rules to my self as I hope others follow. I thought I explained above why Dranges book and Hushovds book are two different issues. Both are books but there is also the language factor and amount of contextual information available that makes it different.

I usually don't take enough interest in other cases to bother to present an alternate point of view. Sorry but I don't have a problem with anyone being caught. I have problems with assuming someone is doping based on limited information. There is a reason there is a group of experts involved in the Biopassport. There is also a reason why explanations for unusual values are sought from the athlete before the case is brought further along. There is also a reason for the existence of the possibility to appeal to cas.

As for mood differences. It is an example. And oh yes they get mood differences there too. But I don't see the relevance because it was an example of a confounding variable. Something unknown that might have an effect on the result.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Let's all give a big cheer for the true clean cycling champions Thor Hushovd and Chris Horner neither one ever tested positive and out side of small easily explained glitches in their blood passport results both beyond reproach in any way. True champions.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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ToreBear said:
Something unknown that might have an effect on the result.
Hmm, yes, "Something unknown." Do you realize this perfectly defensible exception has been used as a doping excuse for more than a decade now? Is Thor the only one getting this exemption today? Let's dust off Ed Coyle's fishing around for "something unknown" wrapped in science talk for Armstrong while we're at it.

Seems legit.
 
I'm surprised Thor's publisher and editor didn't pull him aside and suggest that telling the truth would increase book sales.
He has already made his money, and he would stand to make a lot more if he didn't let his ego get in the way.
 
Jul 16, 2012
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doperhopper said:
Thor's hammer hitting Bassons (wtf, TH becomes expert on talent, food and everything):

Then he has to look at himself: Did he do a good enough job? Was his talent big enough? Did he eat the right food? He must look himself in the mirror. I’ve never seen anyone ask him those questions. Because it is possible. I did it,” Hushovd said.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hushovd-im-proof-that-riders-could-win-clean-in-lance-armstrong-era
----------------
This has to be seen as Thor being angry at Bassons for saying you can't win clean. He sees Bassons as attacking him, and labelling him a doper, and strikes back with that comment - look I did win clean.

One can understand such an attack, though it seems stupid to attack in that direction, instead of in the direction of the dopers, that at least made victories in the GC impossible for clean riders.

Not to mention how stupid it is from a PR-point of view, to go after Mr.Clean instead of for instance Lance. Hushovd was always starstruck by Lance, so happy that the KING would even talk to him.
 
Jul 16, 2012
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neineinei said:
The word april and 200x-200x was redacted in the first print version of the book (Den store dopingbløffen by Mads Drange), but it is not redacted in the e-book version of the book.



versus
"If we can exclude altitude-training, I see no ther explanation then epo/blood doping"

- How can we exclude altitude-training ? And we definitely do not know who the athlete is, so discussing this like we know it is Hushovd, seems really stupid.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Race Radio said:
wait a minute...tygart did not bother to wait to read the thor book in english BEFORE judging:confused: either tygart, the us anti doping tzar knows something torebear is unaware of, or, if aware, trying to convince others to ignore what tygart and many other observers see as an obvious thor hypocrisy...

being involved in the numerous rational discussions with torebear in the x-c ski threads, both doping related and not, and drawing an opinion of him being a knowledgeable, intelligent poster, i am genuinely surprised by the simplistic posting slant which invariably favours his compatriots no matter what.:confused: surprisingly or not, another poster, who's a regular here and to the x-c threads had a concern similar to mine and race radio's

neineinei said:
Originally Posted by ToreBear said:
Yep. And my arrogant self is the one who decides which books are more equal than others:p.
the whole discussion started with you telling Race Radio and anyone else that they shoudn't judge books just from qoutes from the Norwegian press. But the rules are clearly not the same for you. Maybe you should hold yourself to the same standars as you hold others, or just stop preaching. The rest of your post is hogwash
it's not about any particular poster and his/her opinion (no matter how fan based/biased they are)...after all, humans are known (and well justified to !) holding their particular kin grouping (cultural, national...whatever) in preference to others. it's totally natural !

imo, it is about being honest with yourself about one's preferences and the intellectual honesty with others.

anything else, and that's what tygart meant about thor, is a hypocrisy.
 
Jul 16, 2012
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Lance did more good than bad for cycling :)

Some other quotes to add fuel to the fire:

Hushovd beskriver forholdet til sykkellegenden som motsetningsfylt, og at de aldri var nære venner. Samtidig som han er kritisk til dopingbruken, hyller han Armstrongs innsats for sykkelsporten og kreftsaken. Hushovd skriver blant annet at han totalt sett tror amerikaneren har dratt sporten mer opp enn ned.

(Hushovd describes his relationship with the cycling legend as contrasted, and says they were never close friends. At the same time as he is critical of the doping, he applauds Armstrong's contribution to cycling, and his work for Livestrong/cancer. Hushovd among other things, writes that he thinks Armstrong has done more good than bad for cycling !") - end of quote
 

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