Thor's book

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May 19, 2010
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I guess you still haven't read Dranges book, so here is a quote for you from the part where he talks about the blood profiles of Norwegian athletes. He has had an international expert look at some of them and gets this response:

Selv om det ser ut som om det er brukt to ulike maskiner for å måle reticulocytter i profilen til NN (Advia og Sysmex), tyder profilen uansett på bruk av mikrodoser med EPO fra 200X til 200X (av personvernmessige hensyn er årstallene strøket ut, forfatterens anm.) Dette er typisk for en utøver som har brukt EPO i mange år og stoppet de siste par årene (…)

Utøver NN har en klart unormal verdi første april i år. Var det før en viktig konkurranse? Dersom man kan ekskludere høydeopphold, ser jeg ingen andre forklaringer på økningen i røde blodlegemer enn blodoverføringer eller EPO (…)

Dersom kravene til prøvetaking, transport og analyse av disse prøvene er fulgt, er denne profilen typisk for bloddoping (blodoverføringer eller EPO).
This isn't a cross country skiier they are talking about. They do not have important competitions primo April.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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neineinei said:
This isn't a cross country skiier they are talking about. They do not have important competitions primo April.
if the athlete was kept anonymous from the international expert then he wouldn't know whether it was a skier or not, and it seems like he's just asking the question.

but yeah i get ya.
hushovd's going down :cool:
 
Jul 21, 2012
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neineinei said:
I guess you still haven't read Dranges book, so here is a quote for you from the part where he talks about the blood profiles of Norwegian athletes. He has had an international expert look at some of them and gets this response:



This isn't a cross country skiier they are talking about. They do not have important competitions primo April.
does it not say what year it is?

Anyway, 2006 gent-wevelgem.
1 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Crédit Agricole 4.53.15 (42.967 km/h)
2 David Kopp (Ger) Gerolsteiner
3 Alessandro Petacchi (Ita) Team Milram
4 Filippo Pozzato (Ita) Quickstep-Innergetic
5 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team
6 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team CSC
7 Bernhard Eisel (Aut) Française des Jeux
8 Erki Pütsep (Est) AG2R Prévoyance
9 Allan Davis (Aus) Liberty Seguros-Würth Team
10 Kurt-Asle Arvesen (Nor) Team CSC
;)
 
May 19, 2010
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workingclasshero said:
if the athlete was kept anonymous from the international expert then he wouldn't know whether it was a skier or not, and it seems like he's just asking the question.

but yeah i get ya.
hushovd's going down :cool:
Cross country skiers doesn't have important competitions in primo April. Who does?
 
Jun 21, 2009
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neineinei said:
Cross country skiers doesn't have important competitions in primo April. Who does?
no but why wouldn't a xc skier dope out of season? that's when he CAN dope in an obvious way like this without too big a chance of running into a doping test.

so it works both ways
 
Oct 17, 2014
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neineinei said:
I guess you still haven't read Dranges book, so here is a quote for you from the part where he talks about the blood profiles of Norwegian athletes. He has had an international expert look at some of them and gets this response:



This isn't a cross country skiier they are talking about. They do not have important competitions primo April.
I do belive Drange stated in one on of the TV debates that this was not from a cyclist either as most the speculations were pointing in that direction at the time.
 
Aug 9, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
It appears ToreBear is the classic nationalistic fanboy fighting cerebral minisculity and trolls anyone who dares use logic!

Thor upholder of omerta and most definitely a doper.
No this is about Python being obtuse and attempting to bait me into get into an argument with him.

neineinei said:
You quickly made up your mind about Mads Dranges book without reading it.
I made up my mind about parts of the book due to some of his reasoning.
I felt he fell into the trap of being too sure the experts knew everything they thought they knew.

workingclasshero said:
give over

let's quote Hushovd in june 2011 - which is AFTER Lance Armstrong himself CONFESSED to him:

"I choose to trust him after all he's been through. He was on his deathbed and I do not think he would've played with his own health after that"


why the fûck would you believe a word that liar says? What good would reading the full book do when you can't trust him to tell the truth?
My first thought is: What a gutless coward!

My second though is that telling a lie doesn't make you a liar for the rest of your life. In that case we would all be liars. Or have you never told a lie?

neineinei said:
I guess you still haven't read Dranges book, so here is a quote for you from the part where he talks about the blood profiles of Norwegian athletes. He has had an international expert look at some of them and gets this response:



This isn't a cross country skiier they are talking about. They do not have important competitions primo April.
Nope, haven't prioritized it yet, too much important stuff happening.

Your quote does however point to my main criticism of Drange. He uses one or two or maybe three experts to give you the impression that this is the truth. He is too bombastic, and I suspect the experts that he used are too bombastic as well. I have a suspicion that they are too arrogant in their field of study. They assume what they can't explain is doping. While experts in other fields related to the human organism struggle every day with things they thought they knew, actually being wrong.

The people I'm thinking about have usually been physiologists. It's very weird, so it might be a coincidence, but it also might be a cultural aspect in that field of study. I remember my own experience in a class with a professor in nourishment(translation?) physiology. And he did not show any sign of the skepticism and self criticism a good scientist should have. He was a bit of an *** too, making it even worse.

Additionally, there is a reason for several experts needing to agree in a biopassport case. That is that there is not necessarily clear answers, so judgment is heavily involved.


Now on NN. This is very interesting. This is the first smoke I've seen regarding TH. Though I will remain sceptical due to the problems stated above. Also the thoughtful disclaimer at the bottom regarding IF the methods used in collection is correct.


As for what type of athlete NN is. I agree. I find it hard to believe that an xc skier would need more red blood cells when they are going on vacation.;)
 
May 19, 2010
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workingclasshero said:
no but why wouldn't a xc skier dope out of season? that's when he CAN dope in an obvious way like this without too big a chance of running into a doping test.

so it works both ways
There was a higly anomal value on April 1 and the expert suggests that maybe the athlete in question had an important competition comming up. He then says that if the athlete hasn't been at altitude the only explanation would be EPO or blood transfusion.

The athletes blood profile from earlier years are described by the expert to be typical of micro dosing EPO. And: This is typical for an athlete who has been using EPO for many years and only stopped the last few years. Why would a cross country skier well versed in EPO use, who knew to cut back and adjust his doping when he was getting exposed to blood monitoring and improved testing risk getting elevated blood values in April?
 
May 19, 2010
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ToreBear said:
I made up my mind about parts of the book due to some of his reasoning.
I felt he fell into the trap of being too sure the experts knew everything they thought they knew.
So some books needs to be read before judging, others not.
 
ToreBear said:
Your quote does however point to my main criticism of Drange. He uses one or two or maybe three experts to give you the impression that this is the truth. He is too bombastic, and I suspect the experts that he used are too bombastic as well. I have a suspicion that they are too arrogant in their field of study. They assume what they can't explain is doping.
I'm sorry, you lost me here. If an elite athlete is doing it clean, then the numbers are reliably in a range of values without introducing altitude or something crazy like inhaling inert gas. If they are doing EPO/transfusions, there are biological artifacts very well outside the range of clean. Ashenden makes this clear.

At every observation/opinion you are generating uncertainty. This one in particular is one too far.
 
May 19, 2010
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ToreBear said:
Now on NN. This is very interesting. This is the first smoke I've seen regarding TH. Though I will remain sceptical due to the problems stated above. Also the thoughtful disclaimer at the bottom regarding IF the methods used in collection is correct.

As for what type of athlete NN is. I agree. I find it hard to believe that an xc skier would need more red blood cells when they are going on vacation.;)
Actually it sounds more like someone who is driving around in a black and blue Jaguar nowadays.
 
May 19, 2010
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The word april and 200x-200x was redacted in the first print version of the book (Den store dopingbløffen by Mads Drange), but it is not redacted in the e-book version of the book.



versus
Selv om det ser ut som om det er brukt to ulike maskiner for å måle reticulocytter i profilen til NN (Advia og Sysmex), tyder profilen uansett på bruk av mikrodoser med EPO fra 200X til 200X (av personvernmessige hensyn er årstallene strøket ut, forfatterens anm.) Dette er typisk for en utøver som har brukt EPO i mange år og stoppet de siste par årene (…)

Utøver NN har en klart unormal verdi første april i år. Var det før en viktig konkurranse? Dersom man kan ekskludere høydeopphold, ser jeg ingen andre forklaringer på økningen i røde blodlegemer enn blodoverføringer eller EPO (…)
 
Jeremiah said:
Thank you Daniel Ellsberg!:rolleyes:
Even Bassons doesn't buy into the brave hero BS and sees himself very differently to the way many see him

I am not an orator, nor am I a teacher. I am not a crusader, nor an inquisitor. On the contrary, I feel closer to the Cathars, who lived in my home region during the Middle Ages and were victims of intolerance. These men only wanted to live according to their religious principles. Their moral austerity was unbearable to the Church, which didn't tolerate any divergence. They were massacred.
 
Aug 9, 2012
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neineinei said:
So some books needs to be read before judging, others not.
Yep. And my arrogant self is the one who decides which books are more equal than others.:p
But I think me preaching a bit of skepticism about the quality of quotes from Thors book, vs the quality of Information I had on Drange and his book are a bit different issues. Or rather don't present the same problems. For example Drange is Norwegian, and he took part in debates etc. So one could say I have a better idea of whether quotes accurately represent views.

But still. I could be a hypocrite. To me I'm not but others might disagree. Thats life.


DirtyWorks said:
I'm sorry, you lost me here. If an elite athlete is doing it clean, then the numbers are reliably in a range of values without introducing altitude or something crazy like inhaling inert gas. If they are doing EPO/transfusions, there are biological artifacts very well outside the range of clean. Ashenden makes this clear.

At every observation/opinion you are generating uncertainty. This one in particular is one too far.
The problem is what the range of clean is. There are a number of things we don't know about that might be the cause of the artifacts we think are a sign of foul play.

For example in this april example. IIRC there are illnesses at least mentally that can create mood differences when seasons change. Mental illness often has a biochemical component. Biochemicals are related to hormones etc.

So this person from Norway is used to marked differences between the seasons. Lets say all the studies fail to show any seasonal variations in hormones. But that all these studies were done on populations which are used to much smaller seasonal variations.

Being aware that there is or might be a limitation with the data on which you base your knowledge should lead you to a very thorough method of eliminating other explanations.

Even if you are unaware, you should be aware that you might be unaware. Hence the definition of a normal range of variation might be wrong. You just haven't gained enough knowledge in the field to be aware of this yet.

Hence I'm very skeptical about the certainty some of these scientists show when assessing blood profiles.

Oh and if there was just a simple yes or no cut off point, one wouldn't need the bio panel to decide how to go forward. It would just be the same as a positive test.

I hope I made my self clear enough. I don't mean to purposefully mislead. I just want people to be aware that what they take for granted might be wrong. And that expert does not automatically mean right.

neineinei said:
Actually it sounds more like someone who is driving around in a black and blue Jaguar nowadays.
Ah, yes, that is also a possibility.
 
ToreBear said:
So this person from Norway is used to marked differences between the seasons. Lets say all the studies fail to show any seasonal variations in hormones. But that all these studies were done on populations which are used to much smaller seasonal variations.
It's not like Thor lived in a log cabin in Batsfjord and raced outside of Norway twice a year. These guys are pro, away from home pretty much all year long, usually in places where wheather allows training/racing. Thor used to (and may still) live in Monaco. Not much weather fluctuations there...
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
It appears ToreBear is the classic nationalistic fanboy fighting cerebral minisculity and trolls anyone who dares use logic!

Thor upholder of omerta and most definitely a doper.
you are onto something here, still the cerebral miniscule you saw in him, i'd rather term it an intellectual dishonesty, though, he may consider himself a 'sophisticated version of such. he called people who saw through his nationalist bias all sorts of names - from deranged to the last one 'obtuse', with no glimmer of any reflection that the obtuse is the one who invariably and consistently takes one and only side of the story , despite the mountain of evidence, that his compatriots can and do dope.
 
Aug 9, 2012
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Tonton said:
It's not like Thor lived in a log cabin in Batsfjord and raced outside of Norway twice a year. These guys are pro, away from home pretty much all year long, usually in places where wheather allows training/racing. Thor used to (and may still) live in Monaco. Not much weather fluctuations there...
It was just an example of an unknown.
Also biochemical changes relating to seasons might not even need external stimuli. It could all be an internal clock.

I don't know if Thor was clean or not. Though the above is the first smoke I've seen and that might be related to another Norwegian.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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ToreBear said:
I never called you any names in anger. I did however confront you with being abusive to another member because he corrected a mistake you based your argument on.

Then it appears you went into troll mode and I took to long to realize that was the case. Why it was so hard for you to be wrong in that case is curious. But I don't expect you to tell me even if you knew.
you did. dozens of posters saw it. and out of respect to a mod who asked me to not repeat it i stopped. that you cant even admit your own abusive, rude arguments, including calling bengt saltin a deranged old man for suspecting your compatriots of doping- again and again the evidence is there for all to see - is enough to accuse of trolling.

some, even in this very thread called it the very t-word. others, the majority, have called you on the hypocritical, double standard you used over and over when it come to thor or any norge suspected of doping. this is the very definition of being obtuse, yet you call others such....

but i dont expect you to be reflective as you seem utterly incapable of the notion :rolleyes:
 
python said:
you did. dozens of posters saw it. and out of respect to a mod who asked me to not repeat it i stopped. that you cant even admit your own abusive, rude arguments, including calling bengt saltin a deranged old man for suspecting your compatriots of doping- again and again the evidence is there for all to see - is enough to accuse of trolling.

some, even in this very thread called it the very t-word. others, the majority, have called you on the hypocritical, double standard you used over and over when it come to thor or any norge suspected of doping. this is the very definition of being obtuse, yet you call others such....

but i dont expect you to be reflective as you seem utterly incapable of the notion :rolleyes:
Relax Python ;) After all, we all know that only the French don't dope :rolleyes:
 
Aug 9, 2012
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python said:
you did. dozens of posters saw it. and out of respect to a mod who asked me to not repeat it i stopped. that you cant even admit your own abusive, rude arguments, including calling bengt saltin a deranged old man for suspecting your compatriots of doping- again and again the evidence is there for all to see - is enough to accuse of trolling.

some, even in this very thread called it the very t-word. others, the majority, have called you on the hypocritical, double standard you used over and over when it come to thor or any norge suspected of doping. this is the very definition of being obtuse, yet you call others such....

but i dont expect you to be reflective as you seem utterly incapable of the notion :rolleyes:
No i didn't. I have already addressed this once in the politics thread not to mention in the xc thread as well. And if other posters wanted to have a look the discussion is there from start to finish. If you want to continue being ****-hurt, why not be so in the xc thread or even on pm?
 
Sep 25, 2009
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ToreBear said:
No i didn't. I have already addressed this once in the politics thread not to mention in the xc thread as well. And if other posters wanted to have a look the discussion is there from start to finish. If you want to continue being ****-hurt, why not be so in the xc thread or even on pm?
you only reflected on you own fanboism and hypocrisy by polluting threads like politics etc...all you REALLY needed to do was to address the facts of you posting i already referred to several times. in stead, you dodge, deny, twist, lie, call names...if you didn't feel so ***-hurt by my exposures you would not try to dog pile in a thread having nothing to do with the subjects i was bringing up. it is up to you to refute the facts about your posting or take them to the appropriate venues.
 
Aug 9, 2012
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python said:
you only reflected on you own fanboism and hypocrisy by polluting threads like politics etc...all you REALLY needed to do was to address the facts of you posting i already referred to several times. in stead, you dodge, deny, twist, lie, call names...if you didn't feel so ***-hurt by my exposures you would not try to dog pile in a thread having nothing to do with the subjects i was bringing up. it is up to you to refute the facts about your posting or take them to the appropriate venues.
Im not going to take the time to deal with this.

If anyone wants to see how this original argument started back in february, it starts with Pythons post #1550 in the xc clinic thread.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=10911&page=155

There is a good illustration there on why quotes need context.


Any questions? Please PM. If you don't give ****. Well I'm sorry you had to go through these posts.
 

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