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Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

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Re: Re:

hrotha said:
fmk_RoI said:
And the source for that admission is ... you?
You couldn't simply ask for the source like a normal person, could you.
Which part of my original request was too difficult for you?
fmk_RoI said:
staubsauger said:
Mathieu Hermans is one of the true EPO pioneers
Can anyone supply a proper source showing Herman putting his EPO use in a particular timeframe? TIA.
 
Re: Re:

staubsauger said:
fmk_RoI said:
staubsauger said:
fmk_RoI said:
staubsauger said:
Mathieu Hermans is one of the true EPO pioneers
Can anyone supply a proper source showing Herman putting his EPO use in a particular timeframe? TIA.
He admitted to EPO usage in 1989 Tour de France. His only notable results date frome 1988 & 1989 with a significant performance boost in 1988 that ended once EPO became widespread in the 90s!
And the source for that admission is ... you?
There's an article in Trouw, which wasn't the original report I read 2 years ago. https://www.trouw.nl/home/rooks-jakobs-en-hermans-geven-epo-gebruik-toe~af4c0575/

Apparently he confirmed using EPO to Mart Smeets in his book "The last maillot jaune" about the 1989 Tour de France!
In any of the reports I have read about that book Hermans does not specifically admit to having used EPO in 1989. If you have a report showing he does - or better still the quote from the book - then please produce it. Even in the link you posted all he says is:
"You know who our team doctor was?", Hermans asks Smeets. "He knew the product." When asked if he used it himself: "It was not then forbidden. Let me put it this way: I have practiced my sport in a decent way. Can I say it like that? "
Which is not "I used EPO in 1989."

Look, lots of people say he said it: it can't be that bleeding hard to produce a source, can it?
 
Feb 21, 2017
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Rob, often you raise good points, but you might have more success with forum members actually wanting to read your posts if you were less condescending to those you disagree with. I think that may be what hrotha is referring to. There's nothing wrong with being polite after all.
 
My guess is that Mathieu Hermans did not use EPO in the eighties. The confusion came from the fact that he admitted to using during a show by Mart Smeets about the 1989 Tour of France but this does not mean to say that he used it during that particular race. Steven Rooks also admitted during that show to using EPO but after 1989. I seem to have read on these very board that he admitted in his own autobiography todiscover it late 1991 (when 3rd at the Worlds). I don't if that's true but it's plausible. Still despite EPO Rooks never got the same results as in the blood transfusion era, because EPO was so widespread and he was past his prime anyway. Same could be for Hermans.
 
Aug 29, 2016
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Echoes said:
My guess is that Mathieu Hermans did not use EPO in the eighties. The confusion came from the fact that he admitted to using during a show by Mart Smeets about the 1989 Tour of France but this does not mean to say that he used it during that particular race. Steven Rooks also admitted during that show to using EPO but after 1989. I seem to have read on these very board that he admitted in his own autobiography todiscover it late 1991 (when 3rd at the Worlds). I don't if that's true but it's plausible. Still despite EPO Rooks never got the same results as in the blood transfusion era, because EPO was so widespread and he was past his prime anyway. Same could be for Hermans.
There is a lot of confusion about that book by Mart Smeets caused by nobody actually reading it and referring to secondary sources about its alleged content. One interesting item is that the official "About Gert"- page of Gert Jakobs has a short biography about him where it also states that he told Mart Smeets having taken EPO in 1989 when it wasn't banned:

https://www.gertjakobs.nl/over-gert/

On one hand this is his official webpage and the information should be 100 % accurate, but on the other hand the material is most likely a copy-paste job from his old Wikipedia page.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110707171648/https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gert_Jakobs

Because this is the first confession about rHuEPO use I am aware of from the 1980's, it is strange that all the handful of other sources claim he started to use rHuEPO in 1993 while in the Festina team, so the timeline is totally inconsistent. Out of curiosity I even asked his agent/webmaster about the inconsistency issue two years ago and she forwarded the problem to Mr. Jakobs.

No idea how she forwarded the question/issue, but the answer was that he isn't interested in addressing the matter at all because he reckons it "irrelevant".
 
Echoes said:
My guess is that Mathieu Hermans did not use EPO in the eighties. The confusion came from the fact that he admitted to using during a show by Mart Smeets about the 1989 Tour of France but this does not mean to say that he used it during that particular race. Steven Rooks also admitted during that show to using EPO but after 1989. I seem to have read on these very board that he admitted in his own autobiography todiscover it late 1991 (when 3rd at the Worlds). I don't if that's true but it's plausible. Still despite EPO Rooks never got the same results as in the blood transfusion era, because EPO was so widespread and he was past his prime anyway. Same could be for Hermans.
I have no opinion of when he would have used the stuff. When I asked for a source I naïvely presumed there was one, the claim has been repeated multiple times in threads on the Clinic. I'm sure that, in time, someone will eventually come up with the relevant quote supporting the claim, if not from the Smeets book then from his own. This shouldn't be hard given so many say he said it.
 
Aragon said:
Echoes said:
My guess is that Mathieu Hermans did not use EPO in the eighties. The confusion came from the fact that he admitted to using during a show by Mart Smeets about the 1989 Tour of France but this does not mean to say that he used it during that particular race. Steven Rooks also admitted during that show to using EPO but after 1989. I seem to have read on these very board that he admitted in his own autobiography todiscover it late 1991 (when 3rd at the Worlds). I don't if that's true but it's plausible. Still despite EPO Rooks never got the same results as in the blood transfusion era, because EPO was so widespread and he was past his prime anyway. Same could be for Hermans.
There is a lot of confusion about that book by Mart Smeets caused by nobody actually reading it and referring to secondary sources about its alleged content. One interesting item is that the official "About Gert"- page of Gert Jakobs has a short biography about him where it also states that he told Mart Smeets having taken EPO in 1989 when it wasn't banned:

https://www.gertjakobs.nl/over-gert/

On one hand this is his official webpage and the information should be 100 % accurate, but on the other hand the material is most likely a copy-paste job from his old Wikipedia page.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110707171648/https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gert_Jakobs

Because this is the first confession about rHuEPO use I am aware of from the 1980's, it is strange that all the handful of other sources claim he started to use rHuEPO in 1993 while in the Festina team, so the timeline is totally inconsistent. Out of curiosity I even asked his agent/webmaster about the inconsistency issue two years ago and she forwarded the problem to Mr. Jakobs.

No idea how she forwarded the question/issue, but the answer was that he isn't interested in addressing the matter at all because he reckons it "irrelevant".
The Wiki loop is wonderful, isn't it? Something gets claimed on Wiki, repeated on a real website and - presto! - Wiki's got a citation for the original claim.

What I do find useful in the Hermans quote - the vague non-admission admission - is that he points to the role of Fuentes. Conconi will doubtlessly long be known as the father of Gen EPO but I think we'll eventually find it had many fathers.
 
Re: Re:

StyrbjornSterki said:
StyrbjornSterki said:
...Lemond came third in his first appearance in the TdF (1985). He probably could have contended for GC with a stronger team. He did win in 1986. He bore all the earmarks of a borned GC contender (except for the 'American" thing). And in 1991 he was only 30 years and a couple of weeks of age....
Obviously I goofed. Lemond's first Tdf was 1984, but he did come 3rd, despite an almost nonexistent team . In 1985 he came 2nd to injured team captain Bernie Hinault, but only because he was sportsman enough to acquiesce to team orders that he sacrifice his own almost certain GC victory by doing so. And he did win GC in 1986, with no real competition apart his own teammate, the Badger. Third place finished almost 11 minutes back.
That would be the Renault-Elf team that only won 10 of the 23 stages and somehow goofed by not holding the yellow jersey after the first 4 stages?
 
buckle said:
Clinical trials has been completed by 1983 in America but not sure about Europe. EPO was seen as an alternative to expensive and impractical blood transfusions.

Something "big" happened between 1980 and 1984 and the tell is in track and field especially in the middle distance events e.g. 800 metres. Nobody has a name for this era or the few years leading up to it.
The 800m times between 1980 and 1984 were just a handful a races from two people--Coe and Cruz. Whatever they were doing, it probably wasn't EPO. Just look at the track races where EPO would help most: there was virtually no improvement in 5000m or 10,000m times in the 80s and early 90s. The real change in athletics started in 1994-95.

Take the 5000m. Moorcroft ran 13:00 in 1982 and as of early 1994 the record had only improved by two seconds, to 12:58. But by 1997 the record dropped another 19 seconds, to 12:39. The mid-90s were clearly the time when EPO made a big differences in athletics.
 
buckle said:
Clinical trials has been completed by 1983 in America but not sure about Europe.
Could we get a source for that? TIA.

In Kathleen Sharp's Blood Medicine it says that trials commenced in 1985 (Japan and Seattle) and 1986 (London), with other trials following. AFAIK 1983 was when they worked out a method for mass production, They then had to raise millions to do the work. And they only filed the patent in 1984 and treated their first patient in 1985.
buckle said:
Something "big" happened between 1980 and 1984 and the tell is in track and field especially in the middle distance events e.g. 800 metres. Nobody has a name for this era or the few years leading up to it.
If something big really did happen then there's many other doping products one could point to from synthetic HGH to blood transfusions. There's also many other excuses one could turn to before doping, if something really did happen.
 
shalgo said:
The 800m times between 1980 and 1984 were just a handful a races from two people--Coe and Cruz. Whatever they were doing, it probably wasn't EPO.
I thought lots of people had joined the dots and put Coe down as using blood bags? Cause he had a lurgy and then when the IOC banned blood bags his form dipped. QED, blood bags, when playing join the dots.
 
Feb 21, 2017
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fmk_RoI said:
shalgo said:
The 800m times between 1980 and 1984 were just a handful a races from two people--Coe and Cruz. Whatever they were doing, it probably wasn't EPO.
I thought lots of people had joined the dots and put Coe down as using blood bags? Cause he had a lurgy and then when the IOC banned blood bags his form dipped. QED, blood bags, when playing join the dots.
You also probably want to take into account the new anabolic steroid test that was introduced in 1983 before the Pan Am games, causing huge amounts of athletes dropping out , and around 20 being caught. There was definitely a huge algorithm shift/sea change around that time, but probably based on detection methods improving to a certain degree. Granted, from the 50's you had people like Zieglar all the way up to Patrick Arnold (The Clear, etc.) developing designer drugs to improve performance, so there doesn't seem to be a lot of info what the mad scientists out there were cooking up at the time.
 
Echoes said:
My guess is that Mathieu Hermans did not use EPO in the eighties. The confusion came from the fact that he admitted to using during a show by Mart Smeets about the 1989 Tour of France but this does not mean to say that he used it during that particular race. Steven Rooks also admitted during that show to using EPO but after 1989. I seem to have read on these very board that he admitted in his own autobiography todiscover it late 1991 (when 3rd at the Worlds). I don't if that's true but it's plausible. Still despite EPO Rooks never got the same results as in the blood transfusion era, because EPO was so widespread and he was past his prime anyway. Same could be for Hermans.
In this very forum when we had a lot more members I read something that made a lot of sense. Rooks had a high hematocrit to begin with, so the gain would be smaller as well. That was one of the reasons that hurt the Colombians with the appearance of EPO as well.
 
fmk_RoI said:
In Kathleen Sharp's Blood Medicine it says that trials commenced in 1985 (Japan and Seattle) and 1986 (London), with other trials following. AFAIK 1983 was when they worked out a method for mass production, They then had to raise millions to do the work. And they only filed the patent in 1984 and treated their first patient in 1985..
Amgen filed their first patent in December 1983 in the US. A legal case over the European version of the patent (known in the patent business as 'Kirin-Amgen') is one of the most important in UK patent law.
 
Feb 21, 2017
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fmk_RoI said:
GraftPunk said:
You also probably want to take into account the new anabolic steroid test that was introduced in 1983
An improvement in testing technology should see a drop in performance, if drugs and performance can be linked, not the increase claimed.
I should have been more clear, my bad. Up until the new more accurate test arrived on the scene athletics had been mostly about anabolics and hgh programs. Afterwards, I think the big players stuck with designer drugs (among other things ie. BB's) whose chemical compounds would not tilt the boat test-wise but still achieved the desired effect.
 
Sorry, I thought the underlining of Conconi was significant and he was saying to Verbruggen only Indurain hadn't been treated with EPO for 1995 Tour. If my Italian is correct though, Conconi has told Verbruggen of all the riders in 1995 Tour under his guidance or Ferrari and Casoni. So the top 7 riders on final GC it looks like? I didn't follow this Italian investigation much, I don't know the wider context of this document i'm afraid.
 
Jul 29, 2016
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Re:

Saint Unix said:
I'm thinking it was in use in the late 80's, but the true potential of EPO wasn't unlocked until Conconi started experimenting on his lab rats. As with all medicine, it does take time to figure out the dosages to get the most out of the substance. Conconi (and later on Ferrari) were the ones that perfected that for EPO and a combination of other known drugs as an enhancer of cycling performance.
From all I've read and watched, this sounds right. And maps reasonably well to "LeMond's" 1991 date (did he actually say this?) as the point at which some big names (and small names who became big, like Chiapucci) began using in earnest. I would personally mark the performances of indurain, Chiapucci, and Bugno in 1990 as fairly surprising and the first time big riders took victories and classements they shouldn't have. I think by 1991 we are getting into to what in hindsight was some fairly obvious EPO doping.
 
Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
Saint Unix said:
I'm thinking it was in use in the late 80's, but the true potential of EPO wasn't unlocked until Conconi started experimenting on his lab rats. As with all medicine, it does take time to figure out the dosages to get the most out of the substance. Conconi (and later on Ferrari) were the ones that perfected that for EPO and a combination of other known drugs as an enhancer of cycling performance.
From all I've read and watched, this sounds right. And maps reasonably well to "LeMond's" 1991 date (did he actually say this?) as the point at which some big names (and small names who became big, like Chiapucci) began using in earnest. I would personally mark the performances of indurain, Chiapucci, and Bugno in 1990 as fairly surprising and the first time big riders took victories and classements they shouldn't have. I think by 1991 we are getting into to what in hindsight was some fairly obvious EPO doping.
Indurain had a pretty steady career trajectory. He won Paris-Nice and Catlunya a couple times, won a couple of mountain stages in the Tour while domestiquing for Delgado, won San Sebastian in 1990 and went close in the '91 Vuelta, and then age 27 won his first Tour. The unusual part was his then going on to dominate the Tour for 5 years in a row.

The outliers are the guys who dramatically shot up the rankings and down again while competing with him (Bugno, Chiappucci) or the late bloomers; (Rominger won his first Grand Tour at 31, having never finished higher than 16th (bit of a precedent for G, there) and set a World Hour Record at 33. And Riis, of course.) Or the younger riders who uncontestably came up in the EPO era (Virenque, Pantani).
 

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