Todays idiot masters fattie doper

[Sciatic]

It's a thing that happens in NY,FL and California, the lure of the podium, the want to be recognized as special. You can buy almost anything in pharmacies in the 3rd world, and at this point EPO, CERA and half dozen other common things have almost how to classes online of how to administer substances for dramatic gains. Nothing new there.
But what is going on in your head, what deep character flaws exist when you are a chubby middle aged clod who is doping to win a gran condo or local crit or gravel event.. Gravel is a slow moving train wreck in the US. Divide and conquer is a thing and w lots of big races skipping involvement with USA Cycling, drug tests are an afterthought if thought of at all. Profoundly sad if kids and age graders are getting gassed to get results that mean literally nothing.
I watched some video of the Belgian Waffle Ride( BWR) done recently in Arizona and it was confirmation that everything is already out of control. Anyone still silly enough to believe amateur spirit or essence of gravel are high. The story in Valencia and others, people are acting like pros when nothing, absolutely zero is on the line.. many of the age graders are getting trophies and some getting $200 for the win and $50 bucks for3rd.
Talk about return on investment!! Entry, hotel, food, equipment, training, travel and gas, plus doping time and trouble and all for a chance at $200 smacks and a photo, a free beer? Sounds futile.
You would think that it's a 911 for the federations. Nobody should think that Valencia is a one off,..wonder what a pre or post race peepee test would look like at Leadville, or Unbound?

In some ways, it’s not that surprising that some amateurs, when put in a testing-free environment, will turn to pharmaceuticals even without any financial gain or big title to win. After all, loads of guys and gals doing weight training will dope to get bigger and more cut, even when they’re not entering any competitions. Just, essentially, to look better and for ego enhancement.
Although one difference between cycling world and the gym folks is the cost of the preferred PEDs: EPO is way more expensive (~ $1,000 per injection) than anabolics. If they’re spending that much on drugs (in addition to expensive bikes and equipment), perhaps it makes them even “stupider fatty dopers”

 

[hulkgogan]

I'm curious how much drug testing is happening in US masters races these days? I know there was a big splash in the media a few years back of fees going towards that, but since then I don't hear a lot despite a lot of anecdotal talk of US master racing being very dirty.

As contrast a masters friend of mine in Switzerland was visited at home, in the offseason!, for a doping test. He is one of the fastest guys around and can top ten Swiss mountain koms, but he is literally a masters racer, racing small local races only, mostly hill climbs. It blew me away he was on Swiss anti-doping radar. He was clean, lol.

Not sure if this is relevant or not, I like to think it is, but I've done a lot of analysis on Zwift racing and in none league races, 75% of the top 20 can't do the watts outside. Also, I did a hill climb race in Vancouver where they weighed everyone (80 racers) beforehand, average weight 79 kilos. I then did a similar study of a large Zwift race were I parsed a similar North American demographic, average was 70 kilos. Zwift is a cesspool for cheating.

My point is, people cheat a lot, and people cheat to an endemic level when there is no deterrents. I think this is a fundamental trait of human nature, and people generally are very ignorant of this, the same way human psychology is very bad at probability.

7 Surprising Reasons People Cheat at Sports

The pros may get caught, but even weekend athletes sometimes dabble in dishonesty.

www.self.com

 

[Ripper]

I'm curious how much drug testing is happening in US masters races these days? I know there was a big splash in the media a few years back of fees going towards that, but since then I don't hear a lot despite a lot of anecdotal talk of US master racing being very dirty.

As contrast a masters friend of mine in Switzerland was visited at home, in the offseason!, for a doping test. He is one of the fastest guys around and can top ten Swiss mountain koms, but he is literally a masters racer, racing small local races only, mostly hill climbs. It blew me away he was on Swiss anti-doping radar. He was clean, lol.

Not sure if this is relevant or not, I like to think it is, but I've done a lot of analysis on Zwift racing and in none league races, 75% of the top 20 can't do the watts outside. Also, I did a hill climb race in Vancouver where they weighed everyone (80 racers) beforehand, average weight 79 kilos. I then did a similar study of a large Zwift race were I parsed a similar North American demographic, average was 70 kilos. Zwift is a cesspool for cheating.

My point is, people cheat a lot, and people cheat to an endemic level when there is no deterrents. I think this is a fundamental trait of human nature, and people generally are very ignorant of this, the same way human psychology is very bad at probability.

7 Surprising Reasons People Cheat at Sports

The pros may get caught, but even weekend athletes sometimes dabble in dishonesty.

www.self.com

Vancouver BC?

Zwift is a game that helps with training and I really, really wish they'd stop trying to make e-racing a sport. The algorithms don't help either ... basing everything on 20 minute power is funny. I always am categorized into races where I'll get dropped like a stone at go time. And it's funny to be racing against grandmas and folks who I actually know who they are, both who beat me (that only ever in the virtual world). Zwift .... sigh. It beats riding outside in the rain for 4 hours

 

[jmdirt]

that story was so stupid. "Usually about half of the peloton finishes the race in Villena" but instead "52 of the 182 starters came through the finish line".

What does dropping out do anyway? I did a pro/am stage race one time where USADA was present and DNFing did not exempt you from the requirement to share your pee if your name was drawn out of the hat. (Also only the top few guys had their names "randomly" drawn anyway.)

I did the entire NORBA series in '94, 95, and '96. My entry money was just to add to the purse for the real pros! I usually finished in the mid 20s so I never even thought about 'controls'. But, sure enough, at one race in '96 a NORBA/USCF official came to my worn out Nissan pick up that I was living in, and asked me to join him at the men's room in the lodge. While we were walking to the lodge I asked him if I was selected randomly and he smiled and said: "we randomly need a clean result". Three years of no results had made me a target!

 

[Ripper]

I did the entire NORBA series in '94, 95, and '96. My entry money was just to add to the purse for the real pros! I usually finished in the mid 20s so I never even thought about 'controls'. But, sure enough, at one race in '96 a NORBA/USCF official came to my worn out Nissan pick up that I was living in, and asked me to join him at the men's room in the lodge. While we were walking to the lodge I asked him if I was selected randomly and he smiled and said: "we randomly need a clean result". Three years of no results had made me a target!

I've never been tested. If course, my results in real races have pretty much ranged from at the back to off the back!

 

[Sciatic]

I've never been tested. If course, my results in real races have pretty much ranged from at the back to off the back!

 

[Sciatic]

I did the entire NORBA series in '94, 95, and '96. My entry money was just to add to the purse for the real pros! I usually finished in the mid 20s so I never even thought about 'controls'. But, sure enough, at one race in '96 a NORBA/USCF official came to my worn out Nissan pick up that I was living in, and asked me to join him at the men's room in the lodge. While we were walking to the lodge I asked him if I was selected randomly and he smiled and said: "we randomly need a clean result". Three years of no results had made me a target!

That’s really interesting, and funny (about “needing the clean result”) too!

 

[Sciatic]

I'm curious how much drug testing is happening in US masters races these days? I know there was a big splash in the media a few years back of fees going towards that, but since then I don't hear a lot despite a lot of anecdotal talk of US master racing being very dirty.

As contrast a masters friend of mine in Switzerland was visited at home, in the offseason!, for a doping test. He is one of the fastest guys around and can top ten Swiss mountain koms, but he is literally a masters racer, racing small local races only, mostly hill climbs. It blew me away he was on Swiss anti-doping radar. He was clean, lol.

Not sure if this is relevant or not, I like to think it is, but I've done a lot of analysis on Zwift racing and in none league races, 75% of the top 20 can't do the watts outside. Also, I did a hill climb race in Vancouver where they weighed everyone (80 racers) beforehand, average weight 79 kilos. I then did a similar study of a large Zwift race were I parsed a similar North American demographic, average was 70 kilos. Zwift is a cesspool for cheating.

My point is, people cheat a lot, and people cheat to an endemic level when there is no deterrents. I think this is a fundamental trait of human nature, and people generally are very ignorant of this, the same way human psychology is very bad at probability.

7 Surprising Reasons People Cheat at Sports

The pros may get caught, but even weekend athletes sometimes dabble in dishonesty.

www.self.com

Re: your Swiss friend’s experience, doing just a little out-of-competition testing of amateurs could still be a good deterent, as word will get out among racers at his or her level and know there is always a chance (if slim) of getting caught.

 

[jmdirt]

I've never been tested. If course, my results in real races have pretty much ranged from at the back to off the back!

I played ball sports and rode dirt bikes from 5-18, went in the Army, and needed something athletic, but with a bit of the thrill from moto when I got out. In the '90s mountain bikes were the ticket for me. Due to my moto + athletic background, I was successful pretty quickly in mountain bike racing. Due to my success (regionally not nationally) on the dirt, I was invited to join several composite road teams at regional stage races. My role was to work early, and then inspect the follow cars! Racing for the time cut was not unusual for me in longer stages and/or in races with too many stages for me. It did set me up with great fitness for spring dirt races though!

EDIT: The above made it sound like I only rode mountain bikes in the '90s. I got tired of living out of a duffle bag so I finished college and got a job. I still raced pro regionally in to my mid 40s (even with a few wins here and there), and then one last year of Master Cat 1 racing against about 5 other oldersters like myself who had been pros but had too many hours on our chamois (we were all in AZ for some warm weather riding when we decided to do this).

I still ride as many days as the trails and work will let me now.

 

[Unchained]

Dirt, I was in the union in NYC and shop steward calls me in..sit down and he says we need 5 people from the company to take a drug test, take half the day off and go down to the hall in Queens and when you finish, go home.
Over the years I was asked to pee, and for pee because they knew I was not a user. All big job sites have millions of signs saying no drugs or alcohol, no smoking or radios on the job, go at 3..330 pm when most people are gone, the Jamaican, Caribbean drywalling crews will be in there smoking cigarettes, drinking Guiness and burning blunts, walking on stilts!! They get paid by the finished sheet, and no project manager would dare try and make them follow the rules!!
Took bike race tests post race half dozen times and never heard anything so I guess I was clean.. or those pink coconut covered snowball cakes are not tested for..

 

[Berzin]

Although one difference between cycling world and the gym folks is the cost of the preferred PEDs: EPO is way more expensive (~ $1,000 per injection) than anabolics. If they’re spending that much on drugs (in addition to expensive bikes and equipment), perhaps it makes them even “stupider fatty dopers”

I don't know where you are located, but EPO does not cost anywhere NEAR this much for those doping in the amatuer ranks where I'm at in the NYC area. Besides, EPO isn't administered (nor procured) by the injection. It is sold in IU'.s (international units) and can be purchased without a prescription at any public hospital in certain parts of the world that are not difficult nor costly to get to. You wanna blast off and have your fellow riding buddies calling you Mr. 60%? It can be done for a couple of hundred bucks. The markup comes from having to pay whoever gets it for you, and they will never tell someone who doesn't know how much the stuff really costs or how easy it is to procure.

Amatuer cycling has become a complete clown show, with anti-aging clinics making it easy to get human growth hormone, b12 shots and testosterone.. The war is over, and the cheaters have won.

 

[Sciatic]

I don't know where you are located, but EPO does not cost anywhere NEAR this much for those doping in the amatuer ranks where I'm at in the NYC area. Besides, EPO isn't administered (nor procured) by the injection. It is sold in IU'.s (international units) and can be purchased without a prescription at any public hospital in certain parts of the world that are not difficult nor costly to get to. You wanna blast off and have your fellow riding buddies calling you Mr. 60%? It can be done for a couple of hundred bucks. The markup comes from having to pay whoever gets it for you, and they will never tell someone who doesn't know how much the stuff really costs or how easy it is to procure.

Amatuer cycling has become a complete clown show, with anti-aging clinics making it easy to get human growth hormone, b12 shots and testosterone.. The war is over, and the cheaters have won.

Thanks—yes Unchained set me straight on how low cost and easy to access online purchases of EPO are to obtain. you’re right.

I was drawing from my experience—a prescription purchase of a single injection vial (in the upper end therapeutic range —much higher than a pro’s micro dose) is about $1,000 in US or Canada.

You should check your info about taking EPO— it absolutely is an injection, given intradermal (just under the skin) rather than IM. I can assure you this true because I’ve been getting weekly injections of EPO (Procrit) for the last 5 months for severe anemia. The liquid is indeed measured in IU’s—my injections are 40,000 IUs, with the maximum therapeutic dose being 60,000. It is sold in vials of 20,000, 40,000, or 60,000 IUs. A pro or amateur microdosing would split that into many smaller doses per injection from the same vial.

ed. BTW, Im not paying that amount—it’s completely covered by Medicare but will only pay for as long as my HCT is under 26.

 

[Unchained]

I don't know where you are located, but EPO does not cost anywhere NEAR this much for those doping in the amatuer ranks where I'm at in the NYC area. Besides, EPO isn't administered (nor procured) by the injection. It is sold in IU'.s (international units) and can be purchased without a prescription at any public hospital in certain parts of the world that are not difficult nor costly to get to. You wanna blast off and have your fellow riding buddies calling you Mr. 60%? It can be done for a couple of hundred bucks. The markup comes from having to pay whoever gets it for you, and they will never tell someone who doesn't know how much the stuff really costs or how easy it is to procure.

Amatuer cycling has become a complete clown show, with anti-aging clinics making it easy to get human growth hormone, b12 shots and testosterone.. The war is over, and the cheaters have won.

I pointed this out person to person w sciatic, and I think that anything more detailed is an almost how to, and possibly a lure to either a current numb skull or potential numb skull..
to think of guys being fully gassed to race Prospect Park series, or something in Central Park or Floyd Bennett is really sad..in my area @75% of races are 4 corner, dead flat office park crits and thinking of clowns that require a juicing regiment to achieve industrial park podium is truly pitiful...
There is some island guy..want to say Jeff Jefferies (?) Guy is 100 years old and he can push a 54 chainring and has ( had?) Power for days!! He was a cool NYC racer!!
* I don't count injectable B12 as cheating, personal opinion*
Sciatic is referring to medical administration of drugs, but many things are available in many different formats, scary to know that many things are available in tablets or capsules, again eliminating another hurdle for people that don't want to explore being a junkie over bike racing or impressing people in a small town Emporia Kansas, w Unbound being the equivalent of the American TourDFrance!!

 

[Sciatic]

I pointed this out person to person w sciatic, and I think that anything more detailed is an almost how to, and possibly a lure to either a current numb skull or potential numb skull..
to think of guys being fully gassed to race Prospect Park series, or something in Central Park or Floyd Bennett is really sad..in my area @75% of races are 4 corner, dead flat office park crits and thinking of clowns that require a juicing regiment to achieve industrial park podium is truly pitiful...
There is some island guy..want to say Jeff Jefferies (?) Guy is 100 years old and he can push a 54 chainring and has ( had?) Power for days!! He was a cool NYC racer!!
* I don't count injectable B12 as cheating, personal opinion*
Sciatic is referring to medical administration of drugs, but many things are available in many different formats, scary to know that many things are available in tablets or capsules, again eliminating another hurdle for people that don't want to explore being a junkie over bike racing or impressing people in a small town Emporia Kansas, w Unbound being the equivalent of the American TourDFrance!!

I appreciated getting that info from you. I noticed in a couple of the websites you linked they display the product for sale as a liquid vial (I think it was a 20,000 IU) for injection. As you say there must be oral formulations though these would be signicantly less effective than injectable. But you’re right, I bet some folks doing amateur doping find it less creepy to take a pill than given themselves an injection. Just as an aside, EPO injections are incredibly easy to do and take compared to, for instance, a flu shots or testosterone injection which are given IM. Especially since riders are typically injecting themselves.

 

[lightclimber]

I did the entire NORBA series in '94, 95, and '96....

Wow, that is so awesome! Those were the glory days of MTB, for sure!

 

[Bolder]

I appreciated getting that info from you. I noticed in a couple of the websites you linked they display the product for sale as a liquid vial (I think it was a 20,000 IU) for injection. As you say there must be oral formulations though these would be signicantly less effective than injectable. But you’re right, I bet some folks doing amateur doping find it less creepy to take a pill than given themselves an injection. Just as an aside, EPO injections are incredibly easy to do and take compared to, for instance, a flu shots or testosterone injection which are given IM. Especially since riders are typically injecting themselves.

The documentary Icarus shows just how easy it is for amateurs to dope with injections.

 

[Berzin]

You should check your info about taking EPO— it absolutely is an injection, given intradermal (just under the skin) rather than IM. I can assure you this true because I’ve been getting weekly injections of EPO (Procrit) for the last 5 months for severe anemia. The liquid is indeed measured in IU’s—my injections are 40,000 IUs, with the maximum therapeutic dose being 60,000. It is sold in vials of 20,000, 40,000, or 60,000 IUs. A pro or amateur microdosing would split that into many smaller doses per injection from the same vial.

We ae talking about two different things. You are talking about how it's administered for medical purposes. I'm talking about how it's procured on the black market.

 

[jmdirt]

Wow, that is so awesome! Those were the glory days of MTB, for sure!

Definitely good times!

 

[Sciatic]

We ae talking about two different things. You are talking about how it's administered for medical purposes. I'm talking about how it's procured on the black market.

Two of the websites that sell EPO on the cheap (which there are many as you pointed out) that Unchained brought up show pictures of what you can get for $60 or whatever it was. In two cases it was a vial of liquid Procrit (EPO) of 20,000 IUs, the same thing I take. We know the pros have used injectable EPO from those many past histories of how they used and stored it.
So it makes sense if oral is available on the black market amateurs would be buying that as you point out. But if they’re bothering to dope in the 1st place I’m sure some choose to get the injectable since there’s 25 yrs of research showing that’s the most effective delivery. And it’s very easy to useIn that form.