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Todays idiot masters fattie doper

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Oct 25, 2010
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131313 said:
I think you're doing everything in your power to defend an action which (if true) is pretty indefensible, based on your own biases.
No, I'm just trying to bring the perspective of one who has been personally involved in an assault case that took place at a bike race. While most of you would see one "incident" and then later, a deliberate assault, my own past experience shows that cops and prosecutors generally have a very hard time separating the two incidents, and will usually consider this a case of two mutual combatants. Even the cop on RR's link is failing to see the full context. Context counts. Howe physically did something. Atkins was affected. Atkins complained. Howe told him to stick it and pointed to his Kenda buddies as intimidation. Atkins reacted.
I think that there is plenty of reasonable doubt here and the D.A. will not bother with this case.

Pros have a history of just "taking" virtual peloton real estate that they want. If the current occupant doesn't crash, he's just a wuss. If he does, he's a victim. I take issue with pros that just take the real estate because they're getting paid to be assertive for strategic positions. Another reason why I don't believe in "Pro/1/2". If you're really pros, then go be pros. If we're not good enough to BE pros, then we shouldn't be racing with you.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Elagabalus said:
Apparently, he said it on twitter as per the VN article

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/05/news/intentional-crit-crash-during-speed-week-puts-kendas-isaac-howe-out_216880

And then later said that he wasn't sure.
It does not say that Howe said this on twitter, it says that

Howe recalls the accident differently than described on Twitter,
Others wrote on twitter that Atkins grabbed his bars, Howe could not remember

Howe was in the hospital. The only thing he wrote on Twitter was 30 hours after the incident

thank you everyone for all of the support after yesterdays accident. tonight I am flying home to get fixed up and ill be back in no time
The article also says that the original incident, where Atkins ran into the field, happened when he could not hold the wheel in front of him. There has been no indication from anyone that Howe pushed him into the field but that Atkins could not hold the wheel in front of him because of the crosswinds

There is still a lot of confusion around this but one thing is clear, the video does not support Atkins version of events.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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131313 said:
? Where haven't I been neutral? I have no idea what actually happened, which I've only said in pretty much every paragraph I've written. I'm not sure why I need to say it again. What I did say is that Atkins' account doesn't match the videotape (it doesn't, period), which raises some questions for me, and that there are enough witnesses that the truth should come out. I've seen no witness statements, and I wasn't there myself. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED!

What I did say is that if he grabbed his handlebars, he should go to jail. Some seem to be characterizing that as "hard racing" or whatever.If he did it, it's assault, plain and simple.

What I do know is that crashes happen all of the time, so I find it hard to believe that this entire thing is completely made up. So, I'm interested to hear what the 10 guys right behind the crash have to say about it, particularly the other amateurs since they can't be accused of "defending the pro".
I was only trying to make the point that a case like this would be difficult for a jury. Very hard to sort out.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Race Radio said:
I have not seen Howe quoted as saying that Atkins grabbed his bars, did I miss this?

What tipped it for me was the video that clearly shows a different story from the one Atkins gave
Maybe I am missing something but I have gone back in the thread and I'm not able to find any video.

From what I have read it seems like this Howe kid is a jackass and a ***** for saying he would get his teammates to step in.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Glenn_Wilson said:
Maybe I am missing something but I have gone back in the thread and I'm not able to find any video.

From what I have read it seems like this Howe kid is a jackass and a ***** for saying he would get his teammates to step in.
This covers it well and has a link to the video
http://cyclismas.com/2012/05/debunking-the-accidental-crash-theory-from-electric-city/

Exchanging words with someone is one thing, intentionally causing a crash that sends someone to the hospital is another.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Race Radio said:
That reads more like a public relations piece written for Howe. Give Atkins the opportunity to change his story as many times as Howe and then do another "analysis." Give Howe a few more story changes and he will be applying for sainthood.

Someone has been watching CSI way too much. This analysis, if we can call it that, pretty much consists of riders were safely going through the corner many abreast, the crash happened after the exit to the corner, it must have been caused by Atkins. Two riders at each others throats, jostling each other, can crash at any time.

The argument that the riders would have to slide 150 feet to make Atkins story true is crap. Thirty miles an hour is 44 feet per second. All it takes is for Atkins memory and perception of when the corner ended, both of which may be distorted if he was in a white knuckle tiff with Howe at the time, to be off by a very small amount of time.

This video analysis is little more than naval gazing. The bottom line is that someone needs to come forward on the record and say he saw Atkins reach out and crash Howe. That ignores Atkins probable defense, which is to say that the Howe deliberately bumped an old dude off the road (assault), mocked him about it, threatened him with his gang, and the old guy had to put a hand out to stave off Howe from bumping him again. A jury, which does not consist of bike racers, then has to decide who is in the wrong. There will be a strong tendency for regular people to conclude that it was a racing incident where Howe dished it out but could not take it.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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BroDeal said:
That reads more like a public relations piece written for Howe. Give Atkins the opportunity to change his story as many times as Howe and then do another "analysis." Give Howe a few more story changes and he will be applying for sainthood.

Someone has been watching CSI way too much. This analysis, if we can call it that, pretty much consists of riders were safely going through the corner many abreast, the crash happened after the exit to the corner, it must have been caused by Atkins. Two riders at each others throats, jostling each other, can crash at any time.

The argument that the riders would have to slide 150 feet to make Atkins story true is crap. Thirty miles an hour is 44 feet per second. All it takes is for Atkins memory and perception of when the corner ended, both of which may be distorted if he was in a white knuckle tiff with Howe at the time, to be off by a very small amount of time.

This video analysis is little more than naval gazing. The bottom line is that someone needs to come forward on the record and say he saw Atkins reach out and crash Howe. That ignores Atkins probable defense, which is to say that the Howe deliberately bumped an old dude off the road (assault), mocked him about it, threatened him with his gang, and the old guy had to put a hand out to stave off Howe from bumping him again. A jury, which does not consist of bike racers, then has to decide who is in the wrong. There will be a strong tendency for regular people to conclude that it was a racing incident where Howe dished it out but could not take it.
I missed the Howe story changes, what are you referring to?
 
Jun 18, 2009
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As far as Howe's recollection of events, I neither give much weight to them nor do I really take issue with him either not remembering perfectly or the supposed "changes" in his story. I say that because he slammed his head into the ground at 30 mph. I wouldn't expect his recollection to really be perfect...and also because "media accounts" right after the event don't always match what the rider actually said. Atkins, OTOH, wrote his own rebuttal, and didn't hit his head on the pavement at 30 mph.

Regarding the tape, I totally agree that the "analysis" is ridiculous. Having crashed more times than I can remember, I know firsthand that things go everywhere, and crashing is by its very nature pretty unpredictable. The only thing the tape makes clear is that Atkins' version of events portrayed in his VN rebuttal simply doesn't match reality. He claims they got pinched in the corner. That corner really wasn't that tight, and they were well into the straightway. That's the only thing useful about that video. The best information is going to be from the other riders in the race, and they've all been interviewed.

As far as Howe being a jackass, that's kinda true. But if every jackass racing a bicycle was allowed to get taken out, cycling would resemble roller derby, except with fewer people finishing the event.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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131313 said:
But if every jackass racing a bicycle was allowed to get taken out, cycling would resemble roller derby, except with fewer people finishing the event.
Ah, to again be in L.A. in the late 70's. Saturday morning. Channel 5. A sucrose-sweetened Coke at my side.

Ahhhhh.

 
Aug 3, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
Ah, to again be in L.A. in the late 70's. Saturday morning. Channel 5. A sucrose-sweetened Coke at my side.

Ahhhhh.

Make mine a Tab...



Don't step on the pop top though...
 
Dec 7, 2010
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MacRoadie said:
Make mine a Tab...



Don't step on the pop top though...
Yeah the Pop top's were sharp and could be found all over the beaches.

Tab brings back memories.

I still think this kid Howe got a taste of his own.....maybe the portion was to much to handle but when you start making threats about bringing a posse to take someone out .....do not be suprised when someone without warning takes you out. :eek:
 
Sep 14, 2011
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If Atkins would have had to fight the 5 Kenda dudes, they would have all gotten their butts kicked. He's a full grown man, those boys are kids straight out of the Montessori School.

If you are going to talk smack, be realistic and aware of who you are talking to. Known Jon a long time and I would never talk to him like that. He is over 6 feet tall and weighs a lot more than me, I would expect to get crushed. Kids these days can be clueless
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Foghorn Leghorn said:
If Atkins would have had to fight the 5 Kenda dudes, they would have all gotten their butts kicked. He's a full grown man, those boys are kids straight out of the Montessori School.
Damn, I miss Meathead. Never thought I'd say it, but I do.

 
Jun 18, 2009
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Foghorn Leghorn said:
If Atkins would have had to fight the 5 Kenda dudes, they would have all gotten their butts kicked. He's a full grown man, those boys are kids straight out of the Montessori School.

If you are going to talk smack, be realistic and aware of who you are talking to. Known Jon a long time and I would never talk to him like that. He is over 6 feet tall and weighs a lot more than me, I would expect to get crushed. Kids these days can be clueless
I know this is America, and where vigilante (and disproportionate) justice is popular. I hate to break to all of you keyboard Dirty Harry's, but we're still a nation ruled by laws. Calling someone names doesn't mean you can assault them. It's one thing to dispute the facts of the case. I certainly don't know what they are yet, and all of the facts aren't in the public domain. It's quite another to pull the "he had it coming" line because he was "messing with the wrong dude". If the facts demonstrate that he intentionally crashed him out, he's going to lose big, regardless of his physical stature. At a minimum he's looking at a big suspension and a painful civil suit, and at worst he's going to jail.

Lost in all of this is the fact that this special brand of "justice" endangered a lot of other people who had absolutely nothing to do with the incident. I guess that's OK though, because the pro "had it coming" or "he shouldn't have talked to him that way". Sorry, there's a lot of nonsensical responses in this thread.
 
May 21, 2010
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Foghorn Leghorn said:
If Atkins would have had to fight the 5 Kenda dudes, they would have all gotten their butts kicked. He's a full grown man, those boys are kids straight out of the Montessori School.

If you are going to talk smack, be realistic and aware of who you are talking to. Known Jon a long time and I would never talk to him like that. He is over 6 feet tall and weighs a lot more than me, I would expect to get crushed. Kids these days can be clueless
Since you know him, would you say that he is the kind of guy who would intentionally bring someone down for talking "that way" to him?
 
Sep 14, 2011
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at one point when boys are young, your Dad should sit you down and tell you this - if you talk smack, expect the full spectrum of possibilities when it comes to the potential outcome. In that same conversation he should also tell you to stay out of Bars that are made out of cinderblocks and don't have windows. Sounds like Howe was a Montessori graduate and naive. Jon is big dude and common sense should prevail

as far as the details of the alleged federal case this has turned into, its a he said - she said kinda dealio...and the details seem to shift. USAC can't even get an Olympic or Worlds selection right, they should probably stay out of this. Suspend-able offense, only if they both sit. Civil case? forget it
 
Jul 15, 2010
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Foghorn Leghorn said:
at one point when boys are young, your Dad should sit you down and tell you this - if you talk smack, expect the full spectrum of possibilities when it comes to the potential outcome. In that same conversation he should also tell you to stay out of Bars that are made out of cinderblocks and don't have windows. Sounds like Howe was a Montessori graduate and naive. Jon is big dude and common sense should prevail

as far as the details of the alleged federal case this has turned into, its a he said - she said kinda dealio...and the details seem to shift. USAC can't even get an Olympic or Worlds selection right, they should probably stay out of this. Suspend-able offense, only if they both sit. Civil case? forget it
Don't you think you are mixing up your concepts just a bit? If two blokes mouth off during a race and then afterwards they go toe to toe and one gets the **** kicked out of him, then no ones going to cough up their flat white over that, and hell we might even feel happy that an old dude slapped some young jerk around.

But if a bloke does his nanna and brings someone down on purpose thats just an old git going mental. If he was in his car it would be road rage and he would be charged. Stuff the he said/she said guff - this comes down to how far Aitkins went over the line, not whether he went over the line. There is a big difference between defending your position in the bunch and your brain exploding.

I dont know how it goes down in the states, but by the sounds of it there is a bit of a rollerball mentality in your crits. In Australia, the European pro's seem to be able to race crits all summer with the locals with few issues.

Oh and my dad did sit me down when I was a kid, but he just gave me some speach about it not being the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. Sounds like you should think about that as you seem to get a bit overawed with "big dudes".:)
 
Sep 14, 2011
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No

would you like to suck on my "big dude"

fatsprintking said:
:

Don't you think you are mixing up your concepts just a bit? If two blokes mouth off during a race and then afterwards they go toe to toe and one gets the **** kicked out of him, then no ones going to cough up their flat white over that, and hell we might even feel happy that an old dude slapped some young jerk around.

But if a bloke does his nanna and brings someone down on purpose thats just an old git going mental. If he was in his car it would be road rage and he would be charged. Stuff the he said/she said guff - this comes down to how far Aitkins went over the line, not whether he went over the line. There is a big difference between defending your position in the bunch and your brain exploding.

I dont know how it goes down in the states, but by the sounds of it there is a bit of a rollerball mentality in your crits. In Australia, the European pro's seem to be able to race crits all summer with the locals with few issues.

Oh and my dad did sit me down when I was a kid, but he just gave me some speach about it not being the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. Sounds like you should think about that as you seem to get a bit overawed with "big dudes".:)
 
Wow, a lot of speculation going on in this thread. Until I know what the outcome is, based on all the facts that can be collected, I'll just presume both of these guys are guilty of douchbaggery and no one is at fault for an intentional crash.

WRT to intentional crashes, that is something that is pretty dang rare. Sounds a bit dicey in the US of A right now ;)

Now, intentional slingshots and bad mouthing? Well, let's just say a lot of testosterone, a lot of adrenaline, and a fair number of folks who are perhaps not thinking (or never think :D) ends up being pretty much a hot wet mess.
 
Apr 19, 2010
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fatsprintking said:
:

Don't you think you are mixing up your concepts just a bit? If two blokes mouth off during a race and then afterwards they go toe to toe and one gets the **** kicked out of him, then no ones going to cough up their flat white over that, and hell we might even feel happy that an old dude slapped some young jerk around.

But if a bloke does his nanna and brings someone down on purpose thats just an old git going mental. If he was in his car it would be road rage and he would be charged. Stuff the he said/she said guff - this comes down to how far Aitkins went over the line, not whether he went over the line. There is a big difference between defending your position in the bunch and your brain exploding.

I dont know how it goes down in the states, but by the sounds of it there is a bit of a rollerball mentality in your crits. In Australia, the European pro's seem to be able to race crits all summer with the locals with few issues.

Oh and my dad did sit me down when I was a kid, but he just gave me some speach about it not being the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. Sounds like you should think about that as you seem to get a bit overawed with "big dudes".:)

There's so much truth in this post it's making my widdle head hurt after reading the other crazytalk people have been posting in this thread. fatsprintking's post should get quoted on every page just so that no one misses out on some actual common sense (doesn't seem so common these days, actually).
 
Dec 7, 2010
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131313 said:
I know this is America, and where vigilante (and disproportionate) justice is popular. I hate to break to all of you keyboard Dirty Harry's, but we're still a nation ruled by laws. Calling someone names doesn't mean you can assault them. It's one thing to dispute the facts of the case. I certainly don't know what they are yet, and all of the facts aren't in the public domain. It's quite another to pull the "he had it coming" line because he was "messing with the wrong dude". If the facts demonstrate that he intentionally crashed him out, he's going to lose big, regardless of his physical stature. At a minimum he's looking at a big suspension and a painful civil suit, and at worst he's going to jail.

Lost in all of this is the fact that this special brand of "justice" endangered a lot of other people who had absolutely nothing to do with the incident. I guess that's OK though, because the pro "had it coming" or "he shouldn't have talked to him that way". Sorry, there's a lot of nonsensical responses in this thread.
I am sorry you have this take on things but I respect that you have your own opinion.

Since I was not there and I did not witness this it is all just speculation based on statements made by the two of them.

Even still you can’t possibly be so naïve and think that you can just go spouting off to anyone do you? Try that in traffic on the freeway and see how far that attitude will get you before someone pulls out some form of retaliation. IT is just not very smart to go around verbally assaulting folks. I am not trying to say it is without some type of consequences but it will happen.

Your post comes off like you are trying to school everyone about justice and right and wrong.

If someone rides me into the shoulder and then starts to call me out with his posse then do not be surprised if I do not end up “WHOOPING THAT FELLERS A$$”
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Foghorn Leghorn said:
If Atkins would have had to fight the 5 Kenda dudes, they would have all gotten their butts kicked. He's a full grown man, those boys are kids straight out of the Montessori School.

If you are going to talk smack, be realistic and aware of who you are talking to. Known Jon a long time and I would never talk to him like that. He is over 6 feet tall and weighs a lot more than me, I would expect to get crushed. Kids these days can be clueless
"Lookit here son, I say son, did ya see that hawk after those hens? He scared 'em!" :D

"I need, I say, I need a pointer, and that dog's got just the head for it. Pointed, that is." :D
 

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