- Apr 15, 2014
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Nowadays, there's only one genuinely cobbled classic and that is Paris-Roubaix. The cobbles of the Tour of Flanders are soft compared to Paris-Roubaix's cobbles. Besides, the overall cobbled distance at the present-day Tour of Flanders is only half the cobbled distance of Paris-Roubaix.
Besides Paris-Roubaix consists of flat cobbles, which makes it harder, because you can hardly have any descent to regroup after a terrible effort.
In De Vlaeminck's era you had cobbles everywhere. Paris-Brussels was on cobbles, the Tour of Flanders had several flat cobbled sections too, more than today, the Walloon Arrow had cobbles (the Mur de Thuin), the Brabantian Arrow too. Yet the Tour of Flanders was an easier race than it is today. The Koppenberg was added in 1976, the Bosberg in 1979(if I'm not mistaken), the Paterberg and the Berendries, that was in the eighties...
De Vlaeminck is the greatest cobble rider of all time. He actually only podiumed Paris-Roubaix, 4 times. In these good ole days, only the winner of a race went to the podium. You win or you lose.
However, in 14 participation, De Vlaeminck finished Paris-Roubaix 13 times and in those 13, his worst place was ... SEVENTH. His only abandon was in 1980 and he was then also in front for the win. He retired out of unmotivation more than anything else. He punctured 4 times in Paris-Roubaix: in 1970 and from 1979 to 1981; which means in his early days and when he was past his prime. In his prime, he never punctured and always argued: "punctures are no bad luck, it's a matter of clear-mindedness", which is definitely true most of the time.
De Vlaeminck was said to have some kind of a balancing pole inside his shoulders, so impressive was his bike handling skills on cobbles for a rider of that relatively light weight (72kg; 10kg lighter than Boonen).
His manager, Franco Cribiori said that all his riders' tubes were out of order after a Paris-Roubaix, but De Vlaeminck's. Schotte said that the way De Vlaeminck could avoid all the rutts and the holes on cobbles was a mystery to him.
In those days, you not only had much less efficient bikes for cobble racing but the cobbles themselves were in much worse conditions than today. The "Amis de Paris-Roubaix" did a great job in re-aligning those cobbles. That's safer, for sure but it should be taken into account when you compare the celerities of both generations. Many cobbled sections in the seventies had to be crossed on foot!!!
Boonen is an average champion but nothing more. A specialized one, and an attention-seeking junkie. I won't miss him when he retires. besides there was already a thread about him: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22163&p=1441043&hilit=Tommeke#p1441043
I'll always remember De Vlaeminck's comment about Boonen's loss to Cancellara in 2010. He compared Cancellara to Merckx and Boonen to himself (which tells a lot about the hierarchy between the two
). Merckx also had a bigger engine (like Cancellara) and he argued that he would never have made such an error of inattention against Merckx, leaving his wheel in the key moment of the race and getting dropped to talk with the team director. LOL! That was an epic comment.
Besides Paris-Roubaix consists of flat cobbles, which makes it harder, because you can hardly have any descent to regroup after a terrible effort.
In De Vlaeminck's era you had cobbles everywhere. Paris-Brussels was on cobbles, the Tour of Flanders had several flat cobbled sections too, more than today, the Walloon Arrow had cobbles (the Mur de Thuin), the Brabantian Arrow too. Yet the Tour of Flanders was an easier race than it is today. The Koppenberg was added in 1976, the Bosberg in 1979(if I'm not mistaken), the Paterberg and the Berendries, that was in the eighties...
De Vlaeminck is the greatest cobble rider of all time. He actually only podiumed Paris-Roubaix, 4 times. In these good ole days, only the winner of a race went to the podium. You win or you lose.
However, in 14 participation, De Vlaeminck finished Paris-Roubaix 13 times and in those 13, his worst place was ... SEVENTH. His only abandon was in 1980 and he was then also in front for the win. He retired out of unmotivation more than anything else. He punctured 4 times in Paris-Roubaix: in 1970 and from 1979 to 1981; which means in his early days and when he was past his prime. In his prime, he never punctured and always argued: "punctures are no bad luck, it's a matter of clear-mindedness", which is definitely true most of the time.
De Vlaeminck was said to have some kind of a balancing pole inside his shoulders, so impressive was his bike handling skills on cobbles for a rider of that relatively light weight (72kg; 10kg lighter than Boonen).
His manager, Franco Cribiori said that all his riders' tubes were out of order after a Paris-Roubaix, but De Vlaeminck's. Schotte said that the way De Vlaeminck could avoid all the rutts and the holes on cobbles was a mystery to him.
In those days, you not only had much less efficient bikes for cobble racing but the cobbles themselves were in much worse conditions than today. The "Amis de Paris-Roubaix" did a great job in re-aligning those cobbles. That's safer, for sure but it should be taken into account when you compare the celerities of both generations. Many cobbled sections in the seventies had to be crossed on foot!!!
Boonen is an average champion but nothing more. A specialized one, and an attention-seeking junkie. I won't miss him when he retires. besides there was already a thread about him: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22163&p=1441043&hilit=Tommeke#p1441043
I'll always remember De Vlaeminck's comment about Boonen's loss to Cancellara in 2010. He compared Cancellara to Merckx and Boonen to himself (which tells a lot about the hierarchy between the two
). Merckx also had a bigger engine (like Cancellara) and he argued that he would never have made such an error of inattention against Merckx, leaving his wheel in the key moment of the race and getting dropped to talk with the team director. LOL! That was an epic comment.
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Echoes said:
Yes I know this. It was because Merckx couldn't win the race anymore no matter how hard he tried. The route wasn't hard enough for Merckx to ride away and 3 times he couldn't drop Leman who never had any trouble winning the group sprint. Combine that with random average joe's like Dolman and Cees Bal winning and the organiser took it upon themselves to make the race harder.
They started doing this in 1973 already by moving the finish from Gentbrugge to Meerbeke, much closer to the hilly zone with the Muur topping out only 16 kms from the line. 2 years later (in 1975) they added the Bosberg to make it even harder and then the next year came the Koppenberg.
The excuse that it was an easy course for de Vlaeminck's weak Ronde resume doesn't go imo. His heyday was in the second part of the 70's after all.
That de Vlaeminck is a better Roubaix rider and a better overal than Boonen I agree. But on the cobbles Boonen edges him out because he holds (or shares) the victory record for so many of the main cobbled classics.
- Mar 29, 2012
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Echoes said:
It's even less than half, but some sections are definitely not soft. There is a lot of misconception, but let me explain this: Guys that do flanders, chose 25mm tubulars at fairly high pressure, because the first 150K has no cobbles at all. But some sections are as hard as the ones in PR. In PR, guys are on 28mm tubulars, and those are at fairly low pressure. So it's quite 'easy' to ride Roubaix cobbles, as the tubulars are focused on the cobbles, but the asphalt in between the cobbles is MUCH harder in Roubaix, with the wide tubulars and low pressure. And this is what makes it so hard. The cobbles are taken fast and without too much pain, but the asphalt in between doesn't allow any recuperation at all. [/quote]
Echoes said:
I wonder what is less efficient about bikes in the 70s-80s? Until the early years 2000, some riders still opted for the comfort of steel frames and hand-build tubulars (even Boonen rode hand-builds in his first PR's).
And some sections of cobbles were much better than they are today. That's why the Amis de Roubaix had to re-align them!
- Feb 26, 2015
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Echoes said:Nowadays, there's only one genuinely cobbled classic and that is Paris-Roubaix. The cobbles of the Tour of Flanders are soft compared to Paris-Roubaix's cobbles. Besides, the overall cobbled distance at the present-day Tour of Flanders is only half the cobbled distance of Paris-Roubaix.
Besides Paris-Roubaix consists of flat cobbles, which makes it harder, because you can hardly have any descent to regroup after a terrible effort.
In De Vlaeminck's era you had cobbles everywhere. Paris-Brussels was on cobbles, the Tour of Flanders had several flat cobbled sections too, more than today, the Walloon Arrow had cobbles (the Mur de Thuin), the Brabantian Arrow too. Yet the Tour of Flanders was an easier race than it is today. The Koppenberg was added in 1976, the Bosberg in 1979(if I'm not mistaken), the Paterberg and the Berendries, that was in the eighties...
De Vlaeminck is the greatest cobble rider of all time. He actually only podiumed Paris-Roubaix, 4 times. In these good ole days, only the winner of a race went to the podium. You win or you lose.
However, in 14 participation, De Vlaeminck finished Paris-Roubaix 13 times and in those 13, his worst place was ... SEVENTH. His only abandon was in 1980 and he was then also in front for the win. He retired out of unmotivation more than anything else. He punctured 4 times in Paris-Roubaix: in 1970 and from 1979 to 1981; which means in his early days and when he was past his prime. In his prime, he never punctured and always argued: "punctures are no bad luck, it's a matter of clear-mindedness", which is definitely true most of the time.
De Vlaeminck was said to have some kind of a balancing pole inside his shoulders, so impressive was his bike handling skills on cobbles for a rider of that relatively light weight (72kg; 10kg lighter than Boonen).
His manager, Franco Cribiori said that all his riders' tubes were out of order after a Paris-Roubaix, but De Vlaeminck's. Schotte said that the way De Vlaeminck could avoid all the rutts and the holes on cobbles was a mystery to him.
In those days, you not only had much less efficient bikes for cobble racing but the cobbles themselves were in much worse conditions than today. The "Amis de Paris-Roubaix" did a great job in re-aligning those cobbles. That's safer, for sure but it should be taken into account when you compare the celerities of both generations. Many cobbled sections in the seventies had to be crossed on foot!!!
Boonen is an average champion but nothing more. A specialized one, and an attention-seeking junkie. I won't miss him when he retires. besides there was already a thread about him: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22163&p=1441043&hilit=Tommeke#p1441043
I'll always remember De Vlaeminck's comment about Boonen's loss to Cancellara in 2010. He compared Cancellara to Merckx and Boonen to himself (which tells a lot about the hierarchy between the two
You're supposed to be some kind of a cycling expert, but you're either clueless or fan biased! To call Tom Boonen, one of the greatest riders of the 21st century and true cycling great, an average (!!!!!) champion is really beyond me! So you either don't know nothing about cycling, or you're blinded by hate (Boonen), or love for the other riders (De Vlaeminck, Cancellara).
And YES, Tom Boonen IS THE GREATEST COBBLES RIDER OF ALL TIMES. Results and facts are on his side. He owns or co-owns the record of every major cobbled race in today's cycling, Paris-Roubaix, Ronde Van Vlaanderen, Gent-Wevelgem and E3 Harelbeke! There's not much to argue about that.
De Vlaeminck is probably better rider overall than Boonen, but specifically on cobbles I would say he's second best, behind Boonen. Regarding that comments of him on Boonen, well that speaks much about him and his animosity of Boonen, and probably some kind of jealousy and fear that Boonen could top his performances. His comments were not epic by any means!
Billie said:
I globally agree with the part of your post I snipped.
However, once again, your last paragraph looks anachronical to me. In 1971, the Walloon Arrow was cobbled (the route was totally different) and one of the biggest classics, in an era when the concept of "monument" did not exist. In 1981, Paris-Brussels was partly cobbled (it actually was cobbled until the nineties) and was a genuine classic as well.
Until the mid-nineties, the GPE3 was a small sprint race that very few top riders really cared about. You'd rather have won the Scheldeprijs than the GPE3. Only in the mid-nineties, the route was hardened, borrowing climbs from the Tour of Flanders, same goes for the Omloop (though the Omloop was higher-regarded in the seventies for being the season-opener).
By contrast, the Four Days of Dunkirk in the seventies was a prestigious cobbled stage race in the seventies, belonging to the Superprestige Pernod, whose prestige is now winding down.
Volderke said:
Very interesting comment. I've often said on these boards that you did not just need bike handling skills on the cobbles to win Paris-Roubaix but also "rouleur" skills because the asphalt sections are very hard. Reason that friends gave to me is that they are relatively flat and there were close to no descending section to recover. But you add another reason for that: tube size & pressure.
Volderke said:
About the mechanical advancement on the bikes, we might start by considering the rock shox front forks. It appeared in the early nineties, Duclos-Lassalle was the first to win Paris-Roubaix with one. I remember the days the two types of forks coexisted but very soon all bikes had the new type of forks. A point of no return.
The "Amis de Paris-Roubaix" started working back in 1977 but they were very active in the noughties: about 43,000 cobbles repaired between 2002 & 2013. I think they deserve a lot of credit. They're all voluntary workers, most of them are at school too. But I guess their work made the cobbles easier than they used to be. Riders can now handle Aremberg while if you look at footage from the eighties, it often was a carnage. No reason for nostalgia, it's better now and I respect the work by the Friends of Paris-Roubaix but we take note of this if we are to compare eras.
- Jan 4, 2011
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I'm not really a big fan of Boonen, but if he has the mental strength to come back strong from his 4865th injury in the last few years, after having won so many races in his career and being a millionaire, and also considering that his chances of winning another Ronde or Roubaix are pretty small at this point, I have great respect for him.
- May 13, 2015
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At this point, do you think that Terpstra and Stybar are better or not? Classics rider tend to last longer than most, so we really don't know.
- May 9, 2010
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Re:
If we look at the results of the last couple of years, it's hard not to argue that both Terpstra and Stybar has passed Boonen by now. However, Boonen has shown that when he's on top of his game, no one is as good as him and it's hard to know if he can still reach that form.WheelofGear said:
- Apr 12, 2009
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He is looking sharp.
I'm betting he is going all out for Omloop.
That one and only empty cobble classic spot
I'm betting he is going all out for Omloop.
That one and only empty cobble classic spot
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