Tom Danielson

[The Hitch]

we always hear how riders who never got caught doping deserve "the benefit of the doubt" on any issue, no matter how dodgy.

So isn't the reverse true? riders who got caught deserve no benefit at all.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

he should have just gone the Impey route. maybe his ex-wife is also his pharmacist?

Agreed, Cookson will buy anything these days unless you"re Italiano.

The ex-wife contaminated TDs testosterone pills with testosterone. Tell Tygart you love Jesus and you'll be back riding for Garmin on the JV love train.

On a serious note, the JV love train is fully booked (with 30 riders) for 2016 so even if Danielson gets off we won't be seeing him again on the world tour scene.

oh yes, the positive came too early, and he still had not signed a 2016 contract.
sigh of relief from JV (and this board´s server )

Maybe JV spiked the love potion to reduce the roster of the Love Train team that wins anything?

who knows. I dont think. but if he did, at least he did us a favour. TD will be banned or be racing *** races with Horner.
no?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/download-decision/a/6797

UKAD is obviously a different organization to USADA, but the above decision covers spiking by a 3rd party quite well, and references UKAD versus Anderson, which was an alleged case of spiking by an estranged spouse.

Good find. Encouraging that there were no successful spiked-defenses cited, only other failed attempts.

For someone who knows better, what is the FBI's jurisdiction on this case? Why not the local or state police?

The rumor that the FBI is investigating though, is a little ambiguous. One agent and their partner asking Danielson if his ex spiked it, and then going to ex-Mrs. Danielson if she spiked it is an investigation, even if it would amount to nothing. Even them sitting in their office making a phone call is an investigation.

Having read the case linked above, I really doubt there is any kind of investigation that could be done to prove Tom's claims. As we can see, even if she says she did it, it wouldn't let Tom off the hook.

(And one tidbit of the Salazar testosterone story is we know that it takes quite a bit of andro-gel, the most easily accessible testosterone method to trip a positive...)

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/download-decision/a/6797

UKAD is obviously a different organization to USADA, but the above decision covers spiking by a 3rd party quite well, and references UKAD versus Anderson, which was an alleged case of spiking by an estranged spouse.

Good find. Encouraging that there were no successful spiked-defenses cited, only other failed attempts.

For someone who knows better, what is the FBI's jurisdiction on this case? Why not the local or state police?

The rumor that the FBI is investigating though, is a little ambiguous. One agent and their partner asking Danielson if his ex spiked it, and then going to ex-Mrs. Danielson if she spiked it is an investigation, even if it would amount to nothing. Even them sitting in their office making a phone call is an investigation.

Having read the case linked above, I really doubt there is any kind of investigation that could be done to prove Tom's claims. As we can see, even if she says she did it, it wouldn't let Tom off the hook.

(And one tidbit of the Salazar testosterone story is we know that it takes quite a bit of andro-gel, the most easily accessible testosterone method to trip a positive...)

"Spiked" as a defense doesn't work at all. It's up to the athlete to know what they are ingesting.

The only exception has been team-wide Clenbuterol positives in less developed countries.

That Tommy D. is a class act. Wow.

Also worth noting, WADA's threshold is 4x the human norm. Plenty of room to abuse testosterone and never test positive.


If there's ever a decision released with data, it's going to be interesting. I'm still not 100% convinced the case will ever get that far.

 

[blackcat]

are we talking Kristin?

I knew Kristin's Corner had a dastardly subtext

 

[Benotti69]

So Garmin are pulling the plug on JV if there is a positive test!

Sir Tom Mulqueen KoS ‏@tommulqueen 7m
@SSbike coincidence that garmin are pulling sponsorship after a positive test?

“Given that Mr. Danielson has already spoken publicly about it, I can confirm that his adverse analytical finding was for an anabolic agent,” USADA spokesperson Annie Skinner.

“It is important to note that there is a full, fair legal process in place, and all athletes are innocent unless and until it is proven otherwise through that process.”

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/11/usada-confirms-danielsons-b-sample-also-tested-says-full-fair-legal-process-in-place/

Are they waiting till Garmin coughs up for 2016 season then announcing it!

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

So Garmin are pulling the plug on JV if there is a positive test!

It's long been known that the team would be Cannondale Pro Cycling Team next year. Interesting to see what sponsors won't be with the team in 2016. JV may have had his fingers crossed when he said he was out in the case of a positive, but how many sponsors is that true of?

 

[the sceptic]

In Mr. Danielson’s case, the “B” sample was tested less than four days after the athlete was notified of the “A” sample positive.”

While the results of that analysis should have been known long before this point in time, no outcome has been announced. Danielson himself has remained tight-lipped, as has his Cannondale-Garmin squad.

JV, all about transparency

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Danielson himself has remained tight-lipped, as has his Cannondale-Garmin squad.

JV, all about transparency

Tight lipped? It all depends on who's asking the questions.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

In Mr. Danielson’s case, the “B” sample was tested less than four days after the athlete was notified of the “A” sample positive.”

While the results of that analysis should have been known long before this point in time, no outcome has been announced. Danielson himself has remained tight-lipped, as has his Cannondale-Garmin squad.

JV, all about transparency

JV's rider tests positive and doesn't bother to get the facts. He is so anti-doping!

Sounds to me like everyone has agreed to make the B sample announcement after JV gets all his sponsors on board.

 

[mrhender]

updated:

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/11/usada-confirms-danielsons-b-sample-also-tested-says-full-fair-legal-process-in-place/

USADA confirms Danielson’s B sample also positive, says ‘full, fair legal process in place’

....

There has been unconfirmed suggestions that this delay is due to a investigation into claims of third-party tampering.

 

[arthurvandelay]

Re:

updated:

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/11/usada-confirms-danielsons-b-sample-also-tested-says-full-fair-legal-process-in-place/

USADA confirms Danielson’s B sample also positive, says ‘full, fair legal process in place’

....

There has been unconfirmed suggestions that this delay is due to a investigation into claims of third-party tampering.

Enquiring minds want to know: was it his first wife, second wife, or the current podium girl/groupie who is accused of the tampering? Or maybe it was the butler in the parlor with a syringe of 'T".

 

[Benotti69]

I think they are trying to drag it out as long as possible and just sneak TD's ban out with a minimum of fuss. Waiting for the opportune moment to release his 4 year ban. Also maybe Tygart is doing this more for JV than TD. When 2016 arrives I fully expect JV to ignore it saying TD no longer his rider.

 

[Benotti69]

What does a 37year old rider need coaching from a former pro who doped his whole career?

Tom D being coached by Leipheimer. That, imo, points to one thing.

Gotta laugh at Leipheimer comment

But there’s no way I would tell him, or anyone, to take drugs. Not after what we’ve been through.

Yeah, they have really had it tough. Long careers, lots of wins and no fine!

 

[Lyon]

Re:

What does a 37year old rider need coaching from a former pro who doped his whole career?

Tom D being coached by Leipheimer. That, imo, points to one thing.

Gotta laugh at Leipheimer comment

But there’s no way I would tell him, or anyone, to take drugs. Not after what we’ve been through.

Yeah, they have really had it tough. Long careers, lots of wins and no fine!

Have you ever tried to sit out a whole pre-seasons worth of non existing races? It really hurts your ego.

 

[Irondan]

The confusing case of Tom Danielson......

Already, Danielson is without a team for 2016. “The last time I spoke with Tom was when I informed him, directly, that we wouldn’t be renewing his contract,” Vaughters said. “That was about three weeks ago.” Vaughters says he informed Danielson’s agent back in July — before the positive A sample — that he wouldn’t be pursuing a contract for 2016.

So one thing, at least, seems clear: At 37 years old, with a second offense against him and no contract for 2016, Danielson will likely never again race at the sport’s highest level, if at all.


Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/11/news/the-confusing-case-of-tom-danielson_388807#TkGRB2s9ADf1HXBQ.99

TD knew he was without contract for 2016, which means that at 37 he needed a big win to secure a WT contract for next year.

He was simply loading up for the TOU in order gain next years ride at the WT level.

Everything else that happened after his sample came back dirty is just obfuscation.

There's really nothing confusing about this case at all...

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

There's really nothing confusing about this case at all...

I don't think the 500+ posts of this tread are about anyone's confusion. It is cut and dry, which is why so many people are loving the way if confirms the hypocrisy of so many cycling anti-heroes.

EDIT: Didn't realize the title of the article you linked was "Confusing case...". Agreed. That title does put a spin on the case as one of holding back blame and accountability, instead of dirty doper doing dirty doping things.

 

[Irondan]

To sum it up, there's no confusion at all here in the clinic about TD's case.

We know what happened, we just don't know why his name wasn't included on the last UCI Provisional Suspensions list.

Something fishy happening at the UCI?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Its off to do Gran Fondos with the bald pals, Leipheimer and Horner.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

Its off to do Gran Fondos with the bald pals, Leipheimer and Horner.

Maybe they'll put one on in Washington State?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

We know what happened, we just don't know why his name wasn't included on the last UCI Provisional Suspensions list.?

One more time: the UCI list is UCI cases. Danielson's is USADA's. His name doesn't have to appear on the UCI list.

This table lists the license-holders currently serving a provisional suspension as a consequence of a potential or asserted anti-doping rule violation, over which the UCI has results management authority. Provisional suspensions imposed by other anti-doping organisations are not included in this list. The UCI confirms that the individuals listed below cannot participate in any competition until the adjudication of his or her case on the merits or the lifting of the provisional suspension by the UCI Anti-Doping Commission or the CAS. The UCI wishes to emphasize that the decisions in this table are not necessarily final and there may be appeal rights for the License-Holder and/or other parties in certain cases.

 

[zigmeister]

Re: Re:

Danielson himself has remained tight-lipped, as has his Cannondale-Garmin squad.

JV, all about transparency

Tight lipped? It all depends on who's asking the questions.

Did you read the article? USADA talks to nobody any longer about anything when it comes to doping and cases, unless it is to sensationlize a case for the media (see Tygart doing 60 minutes). This is why Tygart/USADA are such a joke.

Their testing doesn't even distinguish between Testosterone, and DHEA (precursor with no proven benefit). USADA isn't required to tell anybody except the rider of an adverse finding.

JV doesn't know, wasn't informed, nor is he entitled to know anything. USADA as a rule, or any legal team for that matter, unless trying to sway public opinion in some way, never talks about cases publicly.

If Tommy wants to run his mouth. So be it. Nobody can stop him. Everybody else is just shutting up at this point and waiting for the legal maneuvers that happen next.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Did you read the article?

No. I just looked at the pictures. Yay! Bikes!

USADA talks to nobody any longer about anything when it comes to doping and cases, unless it is to sensationlize a case for the media

Try reading the WADA Code (and not just looking at the pictures). Them's the rules as regards what needs to be made public.

JV doesn't know, wasn't informed, nor is he entitled to know anything.

As his Twitter comments showed, JV knew more that he implied to VN he knew.

Everybody else is just shutting up at this point and waiting for the legal maneuvers that happen next.

Except, of course, that the tight lips loosened with two different media outlets getting updates on the story and JV answering some Qs on Twitter.

 

[zigmeister]

Re: Re:

http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/download-decision/a/6797

UKAD is obviously a different organization to USADA, but the above decision covers spiking by a 3rd party quite well, and references UKAD versus Anderson, which was an alleged case of spiking by an estranged spouse.

Good find. Encouraging that there were no successful spiked-defenses cited, only other failed attempts.

For someone who knows better, what is the FBI's jurisdiction on this case? Why not the local or state police?

The rumor that the FBI is investigating though, is a little ambiguous. One agent and their partner asking Danielson if his ex spiked it, and then going to ex-Mrs. Danielson if she spiked it is an investigation, even if it would amount to nothing. Even them sitting in their office making a phone call is an investigation.

Having read the case linked above, I really doubt there is any kind of investigation that could be done to prove Tom's claims. As we can see, even if she says she did it, it wouldn't let Tom off the hook.

(And one tidbit of the Salazar testosterone story is we know that it takes quite a bit of andro-gel, the most easily accessible testosterone method to trip a positive...)

"Spiked" as a defense doesn't work at all. It's up to the athlete to know what they are ingesting.

The only exception has been team-wide Clenbuterol positives in less developed countries.

That Tommy D. is a class act. Wow.

Also worth noting, WADA's threshold is 4x the human norm. Plenty of room to abuse testosterone and never test positive.


If there's ever a decision released with data, it's going to be interesting. I'm still not 100% convinced the case will ever get that far.

You say spiked defense never worked, then say, it is OK if Clen is found in some 2nd-3rd world country and it is OK to dope? Sounds like the defense works great!

4:1 ratio capture 95% of the population. 6:1 captures 99%. WADA used to be 6:1 originally, then said, hey, we have carbon isotope testing now, and if somebody is above 4:1, we can run more tests, or just test at the same time, to determine if it is likely endogenous Testosterone.

The average 50%, is 1:1. Room to dope? Depends on your ethnicity etc. I would say since many of these cyclists have and are willing, the possibly dope, Danielson maybe have had his Test/Epi ratio tested many times previously. Once you know your natural level, then you can go from there with the doping of Test and know about what you can take to stay within the 4:1 ratio. Tommy obviously doesn't know how to taper off Test, or is supplement/taint defense is valid.

But, who really knows. Although it is science, sadly, they decide to leave too much variance, almost by no choice, due to natural varying levels, that leave an open window to a possible defense.

You have to figure also with Tom, he pretty much already knew he had no contract next year, and likely was going to retire anyway and do Grand Fondos like Levi, his personal coach, and make a living like that the next 30yrs of his life. So, taking Test and going out with a bang and victory, makes a great story and publicity, if it worked!

But he got popped without much of a leg to stand on, as it seems he did.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

You say spiked defense never worked, then say, it is OK if Clen is found in some 2nd-3rd world country and it is OK to dope? Sounds like the defense works great!

4:1 ratio capture 95% of the population. 6:1 captures 99%. WADA used to be 6:1 originally, then said, hey, we have carbon isotope testing now, and if somebody is above 4:1, we can run more tests, or just test at the same time, to determine if it is likely endogenous Testosterone.

The average 50%, is 1:1. Room to dope? Depends on your ethnicity etc. I would say since many of these cyclists have and are willing, the possibly dope, Danielson maybe have had his Test/Epi ratio tested many times previously. Once you know your natural level, then you can go from there with the doping of Test and know about what you can take to stay within the 4:1 ratio. Tommy obviously doesn't know how to taper off Test, or is supplement/taint defense is valid.

But, who really knows. Although it is science, sadly, they decide to leave too much variance, almost by no choice, due to natural varying levels, that leave an open window to a possible defense.

You have to figure also with Tom, he pretty much already knew he had no contract next year, and likely was going to retire anyway and do Grand Fondos like Levi, his personal coach, and make a living like that the next 30yrs of his life. So, taking Test and going out with a bang and victory, makes a great story and publicity, if it worked!

But he got popped without much of a leg to stand on, as it seems he did.

There is no limit on exogenous testosterone.

6:1 T/E ration captures 99.98%