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Teams & Riders Tom Dumoulin discussion thread

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Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Re:

Leinster said:
Dumoulin wasn’t inconsistent in the final week, he was out of teammates and trying his best to cover attacks by Quintana and Nibali day in and day out. In the end he did a pretty good job of limiting his losses, and finding allies on the final mountain stage.
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Both Nibali and Quintana got worse and repeatedly got dropped in the last 2 mountain stages. Dumoulin went from climbing with them and controlling them with ease to getting dropped by them.
 
M

movingtarget

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Re:

Leinster said:
Dumoulin wasn’t inconsistent in the final week, he was out of teammates and trying his best to cover attacks by Quintana and Nibali day in and day out. In the end he did a pretty good job of limiting his losses, and finding allies on the final mountain stage.
Click to expand...

A pity for Aru that Landa is not riding the Giro. If they got away together it would be that much harder for Dumoulin but then there is the TTs..............Dumoulin was definitely weakening in the Giro. One more climbing stage would have snapped the string I think but at that stage the others were also feeling it and both Nibali and Quintana seemed below their best from stage one. Even removing poopgate from the equation, the stage where Dumoulin lost a minute on the descent almost cost him the race. He obviously learned something there. That was careless.
 
Dekker_Tifosi

Dekker_Tifosi

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Red Rick said:
Merckx index said:
“In my eyes a lot of riders have made the mistake in the past by focusing on both the Giro and the Tour from the start of the season,” Dumoulin told Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf.

“As a result, they were probably already in the Giro with the classification in the Tour in mind. That is a mindset that does not work. I think you should focus completely on the Giro and only then have to look further.”
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I understand his point about not thinking about the Tour while riding the Giro, but surely the early season preparation for the double has to be different from that for the Giro alone? If he prepares as if only riding the Giro, I don’t see how he’s going to be at his best for the Tour.

And what if Froome doesn’t ride the Giro, and Dumoulin builds up a big lead late in the race. Isn’t there something to be said for not going all out to add to the lead, if he can still win comfortably? I guess the question is whether easing up a little at that point—which can be risky in terms of mindset, as he says—really can have a significant effect on riding the Tour later. Maybe the possible benefits aren’t enough to be worth changing one’s approach. But what we know is that Contador dominated the Giro in 2011, and he clearly didn't have enough left for the Tour.
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I don't think there's too much difference between Giro-Tour prep and Giro only prep, except for probably less heavy racing beforehand. However, Dumoulin already had a pretty light schedule ahead of the Giro this year. My best guess that Quintana was too good in the Tirreno already and managing form before the Giro became akward. Nibali did win TA before winning the Giro in 2013, but he wasn't preparing a double and wasn't great apart from the a crazy, rainy and hilly stage. Contador didn't race very much in 2011 and probably decompressed a little after winning Catalunya before returning to racing in FW where he was notably worse than in 2010.

Dumoulin's inspiration to maybe go to the Tour after the Giro is Mikel Landa, and I think he's a bad example. Landa crashed heavily in the Giro and then spent a few stages doing little and recover, which I think delays the form curve a little bit. I think he came out of the Giro with less fatigue or at least less need to decompress.

Lastly, I dont think Dumoulin can be compared to the likes of Contador, Quintana or Froome in double potential. Dumoulin has showed inconsistency in the last week of his first target GT, and typically his performances in Suisse after his Giro were far worse than other Giro riders that go there to get some more results.

Lastly, Contador in 2011 isn't comparable to this situation. That Giro was off the charts hard, and Contador was wasting energy almost everywhere except for the stage over the Finestre. He then crashed multiple times in the Tour. I still think he could have won it without losing that time on day 1 and without those crashes.

The 2018 Giro will be a lot easier. There will be more time between the races so scheduling will be different. But of all the riders who can be considered a favorite for the Giro or Tour, I think Dumoulin is the least likely to accomplish the double unless both routes suit him crazily.
Click to expand...

Still, Suisse is a lot closer to the Giro than the Tour. Plus they have an extra rest week. And Dumoulin was pretty good in San Sebastian. So provided he doesn't race anything in between and can focus and train well without a lot of press and distraction. It's possible he still does well in the Tour. However, the double? No way.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

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Dekker_Tifosi said:
Red Rick said:
Merckx index said:
“In my eyes a lot of riders have made the mistake in the past by focusing on both the Giro and the Tour from the start of the season,” Dumoulin told Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf.

“As a result, they were probably already in the Giro with the classification in the Tour in mind. That is a mindset that does not work. I think you should focus completely on the Giro and only then have to look further.”
Click to expand...

I understand his point about not thinking about the Tour while riding the Giro, but surely the early season preparation for the double has to be different from that for the Giro alone? If he prepares as if only riding the Giro, I don’t see how he’s going to be at his best for the Tour.

And what if Froome doesn’t ride the Giro, and Dumoulin builds up a big lead late in the race. Isn’t there something to be said for not going all out to add to the lead, if he can still win comfortably? I guess the question is whether easing up a little at that point—which can be risky in terms of mindset, as he says—really can have a significant effect on riding the Tour later. Maybe the possible benefits aren’t enough to be worth changing one’s approach. But what we know is that Contador dominated the Giro in 2011, and he clearly didn't have enough left for the Tour.
Click to expand...
I don't think there's too much difference between Giro-Tour prep and Giro only prep, except for probably less heavy racing beforehand. However, Dumoulin already had a pretty light schedule ahead of the Giro this year. My best guess that Quintana was too good in the Tirreno already and managing form before the Giro became akward. Nibali did win TA before winning the Giro in 2013, but he wasn't preparing a double and wasn't great apart from the a crazy, rainy and hilly stage. Contador didn't race very much in 2011 and probably decompressed a little after winning Catalunya before returning to racing in FW where he was notably worse than in 2010.

Dumoulin's inspiration to maybe go to the Tour after the Giro is Mikel Landa, and I think he's a bad example. Landa crashed heavily in the Giro and then spent a few stages doing little and recover, which I think delays the form curve a little bit. I think he came out of the Giro with less fatigue or at least less need to decompress.

Lastly, I dont think Dumoulin can be compared to the likes of Contador, Quintana or Froome in double potential. Dumoulin has showed inconsistency in the last week of his first target GT, and typically his performances in Suisse after his Giro were far worse than other Giro riders that go there to get some more results.

Lastly, Contador in 2011 isn't comparable to this situation. That Giro was off the charts hard, and Contador was wasting energy almost everywhere except for the stage over the Finestre. He then crashed multiple times in the Tour. I still think he could have won it without losing that time on day 1 and without those crashes.

The 2018 Giro will be a lot easier. There will be more time between the races so scheduling will be different. But of all the riders who can be considered a favorite for the Giro or Tour, I think Dumoulin is the least likely to accomplish the double unless both routes suit him crazily.
Click to expand...

Still, Suisse is a lot closer to the Giro than the Tour. Plus they have an extra rest week. And Dumoulin was pretty good in San Sebastian. So provided he doesn't race anything in between and can focus and train well without a lot of press and distraction. It's possible he still does well in the Tour. However, the double? No way.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and that's why they should ditch the idea. Even if the Vuelta is the most ridiculously mountainious route, which won't, any Vuelta or Worlds attempt would be better than a Tour de France which is a waste of the entire rest of the year in terms of wins
 
Valv.Piti

Valv.Piti

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I don't necessarily think its a bad idea to go for the Giro win and then within a week decide if you are riding the Tour. I mean, he could feel well and all, legitimately well, but the chances aren't that big really. I think he is smart enough not to do it it he feels it just isn't clicking. My point is its not necessarily bad to have the Tour as an option should he against all odds feel flying
 
Maaaaaaaarten

Maaaaaaaarten

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Clearly Dumoulin is targeting the mythical triple crown :p

After pulling that off he will win all five monuments in one season and be objectively the GOAT :eek:

Then he will become the first man to travel to Mars to escape from the menacing press ;)
 
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Besides the TT it was the only stage that mattered for him I guess and it was probably the worst point in the stage to get a mechanical. But yeah, in the end it was about a top 10 finish...
 
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WheelofGear

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Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
I wonder why he was so incredibly pissed at the last Abu Dhabi stage. By that point he didn't have much to gain anymore except a fringe top 10 finish. Think he expected more from this race and let it all out at that point.
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And it's not like Abu Dhabi is Paris-Nice. I'd rank it below Down Under as well. :lol:
 
King Boonen

King Boonen

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Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
I wonder why he was so incredibly pissed at the last Abu Dhabi stage. By that point he didn't have much to gain anymore except a fringe top 10 finish. Think he expected more from this race and let it all out at that point.
Click to expand...

Maybe he was supposed to push on in the red and see how he was handling it, or holding a specific power for the climb was part of his schedule and he was annoyed he couldn't finish.

Or maybe something's just not been going well and it all boiled over.
 
DNP-Old

DNP-Old

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Re: Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
DNP-Old said:
Dekker_Tifosi said:
Confirmed double now. Giro and Tour
Click to expand...
Denied by Dumoulin himself, for now.
Click to expand...
Yeah, weird communication going on by Sunweb.

Visbeek (teamleader) confirmed participation and then a few hours later it's suddenly a mistake.
Click to expand...
Looks like he spoke before his turn really. I wouldn't really like Dumoulin doing the double, because it's pretty much undoable when going for a GC in both. On top of that, he would likely throw a certain B2B world title down the drain, as his autumn would suffer.

However, I do like Dumoulin's explanation to his plans. I like his decision to wait until after the Giro before stating a final yes or no. To me, it's not manageable to win the Giro without full focus. At the same time, when going full focus in the Giro, it's not manageable to be good (enough) in the Tour.

At the beginning of the year they (Sunweb and/or Dumoulin) mentioned Landa as an example that it is doable, but Landa's Giro was pretty much over after 8 1/2 stages. Yes, he did win a stage and came close to winning some more, but it seems the hardest part of doing GC racing is the mental fatigue. Dumoulin mentioned he was completely broken as far as the mental aspect goes after his Giro. Also, Landa had the ''luxury'' of taking days of, Dumoulin wouldn't really.
 
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