Top 5 GT Riders: Order & Discussion

[damian13ster]

Thats weird.The topic of this thread is,who are the best GT riders who will lienup next GT,when 100% healthy.
It is not based on history (and even if it was ,Contador won gt 1yr 11 months ago) but recent races perfromance.
You dont think Contador is actually better gt rider than at least one of those you named?

Im not going to asnwer to your entire post,as I said it was discussed enough,if you want to discuss it again,go to proper stage thread.

bolded: Ok lets have a bet about next GT performace at la Vuelta,they have same conditions (perfect same).
Who will be better in final GC Not apllied when serious crash or mechanical which throw them out of GC (several minutes lost).
The one who wins can pick any avatar,from end of Vuelta to end of next Tour.
Deal?

Actually conditions are completely different since they have different route, but sure, why not. I dont have an avatar and didnt plan on getting one (and honestly dont care what avatar you have so if I win then feel free to keep the one you want), but we will see how they compare in Vuelta.

 

[Escarabajo]

The stage to Le Grand Bornand. True. He showed himself well there. After that, he spectaculairy blow up

Or the stage to Andorra, same outcome.

Or the stage in Switzerland.

He missed the cut by winds in the Ventoux stage and did not bother trying hard since he was not fighting for the overall anyway.

Having said that, Uran changed his approach to targeting GT’s. He is not trying hard in the races before the GT. He changed his training approach as well. Before he would try harder to show something before the GT’s. In the Giro 3 years ago it was the first one in which he did not lose a lot of time during his bad day. Now he is trying hard to minimize losses on his bad days. But he always has had a potential. He started winning races from the get go in Colombia and when he was around 19 years old he moved to Europe with a Belgian team. He had a big talent since very young. His crash in the Tour of Germany set him back a little bit, but he showed his talent since very early.

 

[ILovecycling]

Actually conditions are completely different since they have different route, but sure, why not. I dont have an avatar and didnt plan on getting one (and honestly dont care what avatar you have so if I win then feel free to keep the one you want), but we will see how they compare in Vuelta.

Yeah,and the route is tailormade for Quintana

As for the bet,thats why it is 'avatar bet'.I dont know if you think its childish or what,but thats the deal,you lose you change avatar,I lose I change mine (the winner picks it).its almost for a year,so decide carefuly

 

[Arredondo]

Or the stage in Switzerland.

He missed the cut by winds in the Ventoux stage and did not bother trying hard since he was not fighting for the overall anyway.

Having said that, Uran changed his approach to targeting GT’s. He is not trying hard in the races before the GT. He changed his training approach as well. Before he would try harder to show something before the GT’s. In the Giro 3 years ago it was the first one in which he did not lose a lot of time during his bad day. Now he is trying hard to minimize losses on his bad days. But he always has had a potential. He started winning races from the get go in Colombia and when he was around 19 years old he moved to Europe with a Belgian team. He had a big talent since very young. His crash in the Tour of Germany set him back a little bit, but he showed his talent since very early.

Of course he's got a lot of talent. On a good day, a classic win is possible, while he's able to reach the podium of a Giro. But to state now he's the 5th (or 4th) best GT rider at the moment, is not right imo. Therefore, he has to show something in the Tour. Or this Vuelta, against the likes of Froome, Quintana (again), Purito and Horner p).

I'm really curious to see how he will handle the Tour next year.

 

[Jspear]

No. Same people here take it for what it is. An assumption.
Quintana hasnt been known for grimacing and showing pain face when he is on his limits so how can you tell how he felt? Only he knows. And wouldnt a logical thing to do after such controversy be to prove on following stages that you would destroy competition anyway? You didnt see Nibali holding up and riding defensive in Tour de France. He knew his opponents dropped out so he proved that he would be up there with them by absolutely destroying the field and showing that noone can match him. And provided entertainment with long range attacks. If Nairo was able to do the same whats the reason not to do that and prove that you are by far the strongest in the race (not just stronger on MTFs by a bit, but stronger by enough to nullify the Stelvio stage (and not just the descent because the race would be much different if they were all there together)). He just wasnt capable of doing that and thats why his win will be questioned by some, and there are legitimate reasons for that.

You say my post is an assumption but do you notice that your post is full of assumptions as well? Here are the facts: (1.) Nairo crashed hard on stage 6. (2.) Nario had a cold and was on antibiotics. (3.) Nairo said that even in the 3rd week he was still a little off because of the cold he had had. (4.) Nairo won the Giro. He beat your man Uran.

All you are doing is speculating that Uran could have won if, say, stage 16 had been different. That is speculation. You say he was riding as hard as he could after stage 16 (or at least that's what you are implying), I say that he just stayed with Uran and didn't feel the need to extend his lead in the other mountain stages. He had a different mentality than Nibali. Not everyone wins a GT in the same way of fashion. You say if he hadn't gained time on stage 16 Uran would have won, I say if he hadn't gained the time there he would have gained the time somewhere else. Whatever else you have to say, the fact remains: Quintana beat Uran.

 

[Netserk]

Uran is certainly better than Purito. Not as good as Horner, but still better than Purito.

 

[Afrank]

And replying to Afranks' post. Of course, if those mistakes are made by the riders then sure, results are valid. If the mistakes were made by organizers though.....


Also, about other mountain finishes. He was taking 20 seconds per MTF, there is no denying that, but there is also no denying that he wouldnt make up the time for Uran at that pace! He would run out of MTF's. And are you going to say that Hesjedal is better climber than Uran? If thats not the case than it is more likely than not that Uran would lose just a couple of seconds, not even 20. So not exactly sure where you were going with this point.

Of course, age argument is valid. if I was to sign a rider for 3-4 seasons I would go with Quintana. We were talking about current state though, and in this year I wasnt impressed with Quintana's performance at all and believe if all were fair and square, Uran would win the Giro. Of course he would lose 1:30 +/- 15 seconds on mountain stages in total (and that might be a stretch since he didn really have major crisis) but that wasnt enough to make up for the lead he had, even if you account 1:26s from MTT. Its the only point I am trying to make. Again, not arguing Quintana doesnt have much higher potential or that he isnt a better climber since he proved that to be true. All I am saying is that he wouldnt win the Giro this season without help from organizers. And since the parcours really suited him and he wasnt able to dominate, I would pick Uran over him for a GT this season

Quintana would likely be taking more then 20 seconds on the coming stages IMO. It's all speculation and impossible to prove of course, but from what I saw (how he rode Val Martello, how he rode the TT, how Uran was climbing), I think he would have taken a nice big chunk of time on the other MTF stages. Not just 20 seconds.

Plus, I don't think he was working that hard or that stressed trying to hang on on the stages after he got his lead and a decent gap to the others. For example, Zoncolan wasn't ridden that hard by the GC's. Hardly any attacks and Quintana easily stayed with Uran when he went away from the others. If he had needed to make up time on Uran, I could see him making up a minute or more there if he wanted.

No. Same people here take it for what it is. An assumption.
Quintana hasnt been known for grimacing and showing pain face when he is on his limits so how can you tell how he felt? Only he knows. And wouldnt a logical thing to do after such controversy be to prove on following stages that you would destroy competition anyway? You didnt see Nibali holding up and riding defensive in Tour de France. He knew his opponents dropped out so he proved that he would be up there with them by absolutely destroying the field and showing that noone can match him. And provided entertainment with long range attacks. If Nairo was able to do the same whats the reason not to do that and prove that you are by far the strongest in the race (not just stronger on MTFs by a bit, but stronger by enough to nullify the Stelvio stage (and not just the descent because the race would be much different if they were all there together)). He just wasnt capable of doing that and thats why his win will be questioned by some, and there are legitimate reasons for that.

Is you saying Uran would have held on with Quintana and maintained his gap or you saying Quintana wasn't capable of attacking and increasing his gap in the later stages, not also just assumptions?

Nibali had something to prove in the Tour. He wanted to make sure he earned the victory even with his biggest rivals not there. Quintana didn't have to prove that. The biggest reason for him not to try to increase his gap more and make it a really dominating GT win though as I see it, would be that he's for the first time competing for a GT win. He's already got the gap, why endanger the chance of winning by going on an all out attack. What happens if he goes too far into the red and blows up, or has a hunger knock, or something else like that? For his situation, IMO it was perfectly sensible to ride within his limits and make sure he gets the overall win. No shame in doing so, Contador has often ridden the same way once in the leaders jersey.

Further more on the whole was Quintana at his limits could Uran have matched him if he was, etc. debate; Uran wasn't able to match him on any of the previous stages where we knew Quintana was riding hard. Why would he be able to match him on the later stages if Quintana rode hard and attacked there?

 

[damian13ster]

Oh boy.... since when did Uran become my man? I am not a fan of him at all, I like riders who animate races more. My post was based on facts since it showed gaps that Quintana made on other MTFs, and the gap he made to Hesjedal on stage 16. Those are facts, and I base my opinions on them, while you are saying he could have made up more time if he wanted to. Thats an assumption. Really, I thought you would know a difference.

And I am not negating that Quintana finished Giro in less time than Uran. What I am saying is that it was for reasons that werent 'normal' for a professional cycling race and should have never took place.
Why do you keep dragging this topic on?
Facts are, he won by less than the gaps on stage 16. Whether he could have won by more is pure speculation.

 

[PirazziAttacksVino]

It solely depends on the route.

TT heavy GT: Froome
Climbing-fest GT: Quintana
All around GT, with pave, descents and tactical opportunities: Nibali
Lots of climbs+hilly TT GT: Contador
Vuelta-like MTFs that end in uphill sprints GT, with 30 km of TT: Purito

 

[Netserk]

It solely depends on the route.

TT heavy GT: Froome
Climbing-fest GT: Quintana
All around GT, with pave, descents and tactical opportunities: Nibali
Lots of climbs+hilly TT GT: Contador
Vuelta-like MTFs that end in uphill sprints GT, with 30 km of TT: Purito

Contador would win in four of those scenarios.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Uran is certainly better than Purito. Not as good as Horner, but still better than Purito.

This. Except for the complete opposite.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

ITA 1 NIBALI, Vincenzo (ASTANA) 89:59:06
FRA 2 PERAUD, Jean-Christophe (AG2R LA MONDIALE) + 7:37
FRA 3 PINOT, Thibaut (FDJ.fr) + 8:15
ESP 4 VALVERDE BELMONTE, Alejandro (MOVISTAR) + 9:40
USA 5 VAN GARDEREN, Tejay (BMC RACING) + 11:24

...these are the top 5 GT riders currently. Unless we are talking about in a magical land where form, team, and all other factors do not matter in which case...

1)me
2)a unicorn
3)rainbows
4)me again because i'm just that good
5)one of the schlecks I guess.... I dunno pick one.

 

[Pentacycle]

ITA 1 NIBALI, Vincenzo (ASTANA) 89:59:06
FRA 2 PERAUD, Jean-Christophe (AG2R LA MONDIALE) + 7:37
FRA 3 PINOT, Thibaut (FDJ.fr) + 8:15
ESP 4 VALVERDE BELMONTE, Alejandro (MOVISTAR) + 9:40
USA 5 VAN GARDEREN, Tejay (BMC RACING) + 11:24

...these are the top 5 GT riders currently. Unless we are talking about in a magical land where form, team, and all other factors do not matter in which case...

1)me
2)a unicorn
3)rainbows
4)me again because i'm just that good
5)one of the schlecks I guess.... I dunno pick one.

It's about a mix of performances and results, combined with some consistency over the last couple of years. And considering the gaps in this top five Péraud &co do not deserve to be on the same list as Nibali IMO. Maybe Valverde because he has a few Vuelta podia.

 

[Escarabajo]

ITA 1 NIBALI, Vincenzo (ASTANA) 89:59:06
FRA 2 PERAUD, Jean-Christophe (AG2R LA MONDIALE) + 7:37
FRA 3 PINOT, Thibaut (FDJ.fr) + 8:15
ESP 4 VALVERDE BELMONTE, Alejandro (MOVISTAR) + 9:40
USA 5 VAN GARDEREN, Tejay (BMC RACING) + 11:24

...these are the top 5 GT riders currently. Unless we are talking about in a magical land where form, team, and all other factors do not matter in which case...

1)me
2)a unicorn
3)rainbows
4)me again because i'm just that good
5)one of the schlecks I guess.... I dunno pick one.

So what is the Giro???? a swimming contest?

 

[SeriousSam]

ITA 1 NIBALI, Vincenzo (ASTANA) 89:59:06
FRA 2 PERAUD, Jean-Christophe (AG2R LA MONDIALE) + 7:37
FRA 3 PINOT, Thibaut (FDJ.fr) + 8:15
ESP 4 VALVERDE BELMONTE, Alejandro (MOVISTAR) + 9:40
USA 5 VAN GARDEREN, Tejay (BMC RACING) + 11:24

...these are the top 5 GT riders currently. Unless we are talking about in a magical land where form, team, and all other factors do not matter in which case...

We are thinking about who's going to do well and win the next few grand tours.

Other than Nibali, none of those guys have a chance of being the most likely person to win any of the next few grand tours. This conclusion doesn't stem from imagining a magical la la land, it stems from not being and idiot and being capable of assessing a rider's GT strength.

 

[Arredondo]

Uran is certainly better than Purito. Not as good as Horner, but still better than Purito.

Are you drunk? You can hate the guy, but stay to the facts.

 

[Netserk]

Are you drunk? You can hate the guy, but stay to the facts.

Please show me how it's a fact that Horner isn't better than Uran.

 

[Arredondo]

Please show me how it's a fact that Horner isn't better than Uran.

Funny, i'm not talking about him.

Purito has reached 4 times the podium of a GT, in all GT's. He reached it in the Tour. Uran not. That's reality.

 

[Netserk]

Funny, i'm not talking about him.

Purito has reached 4 times the podium of a GT, in all GT's. He reached it in the Tour. Uran not. That's reality.

So are Pinot and Peraud also better GT riders than Uran? Wiggins too? Evans at least two levels above Uran then...

 

[Arredondo]

So are Pinot and Peraud also better GT riders than Uran? Wiggins too? Evans at least two levels above Uran then...

There is no reason to scale Uran above Purito. No reason AT ALL. Purito is a better climber, more explosive, higher overall level. The only thing Uran is, is a better TT'er (but not that good also). But it's just total bull**** to put Uran on the same level as Purito.

The only thing is that Purito will get older, and at a certain point, Uran will pas him. But that's part of cycling. But at the moment, there's no reason at all to scale him higher.

I rate Uran higher then Peraud. I don't rate him much more higher then Pinot ofcourse. Wiggins in top form is ofcourse better then Uran, because he would take 4 minutes in two TT's.

But you just hate Purito, so actually its useluss to put al my energy in trying to convince you. It's a bit pathetic really.

 

[Netserk]

There is no reason to scale Uran above Purito. No reason AT ALL. Purito is a better climber, more explosive, higher overall level. The only thing Uran is, is a better TT'er (but not that good also). But it's just total bull**** to put Uran on the same level as Purito.

The only thing is that Purito will get older, and at a certain point, Uran will pas him. But that's part of cycling. But at the moment, there's no reason at all to scale him higher.

I rate Uran higher then Peraud. I don't rate him much more higher then Pinot ofcourse. Wiggins in top form is ofcourse better then Uran, because he would take 4 minutes in two TT's.

But you just hate Purito, so actually its useluss to put al my energy in trying to convince you. It's a bit pathetic really.

You could save yourself all the trouble and just point me to the facts.

 

[Arredondo]

You could save yourself all the trouble and just point me to the facts.

Point me to the facts why Uran is better. I can't find them.

 

[Netserk]

Point me to the facts why Uran is better. I can't find them.

Sure, just show me one post of mine where I have claimed that my opinion is 'the facts'. Something like this:

Are you drunk? You can hate the guy, but stay to the facts.

 

[Arredondo]

Sure, just show me one post of mine where I have claimed that my opinion is 'the facts'. Something like this:

No opinion without facts. Without facts it's just bull****. Then i can say Pinot is better GT rider then Froome.

I better hope in general an opinion is based on some kind of logic and facts. It would be a strange world without

But you're saying it's your opinion, based on no facts or some kind of logical. So we're pretty done.

 

[Netserk]

No opinion without facts. Without facts it's just bull****. Then i can say Pinot is better GT rider then Froome.

I better hope in general an opinion is based on some kind of logic and facts. It would be a strange world without

But you're saying it's your opinion, based on no facts or some kind of logical. So we're pretty done.

I am aware that you're ESL, but that's not really an excuse.

Read again. More slowly next time perhaps?