Top 5 GT Riders: Order & Discussion

[Afrank]

Just thinking about the Quintana best climber of the 4 discussion. A few points:

Quintana was riding with the best 3 riders in his first GT, the Vuelta 2012 (Contador, Valverde, Purito). Who also incidentally happen to be some of the best GT riders and climbers at the time as well.

He was the best, or 2nd best after Froome, in Tour 2013. Attacking multiple times on the climbs and from far out.

He crushed it on the climbs of this years Giro. Adding greatly to his lead up Val Martello and winning the Cima Grappa TT (1:26 or more over everyone except Aru).

And he's a Colombian super climber that's regarded by many as one of the biggest climbing talents (and biggest talents overall) in the world for a while now. I think I recall a couple of references comparing him to Pantani.

 

[damian13ster]

Just thinking about the Quintana best climber of the 4 discussion. A few points:

Quintana was riding with the best 3 riders in his first GT, the Vuelta 2012 (Contador, Valverde, Purito). Who also incidentally happen to be some of the best GT riders and climbers at the time as well.

He was the best, or 2nd best after Froome, in Tour 2013. Attacking multiple times on the climbs and from far out.

He crushed it on the climbs of this years Giro. Adding greatly to his lead up Val Martello and winning the Cima Grappa TT (1:26 or more over everyone except Aru).

And he's a Colombian super climber that's regarded by many as one of the biggest climbing talents (and biggest talents overall) in the world for a while now. I think I recall a couple of references comparing him to Pantani.

To clarify: references made mostly by Colombians. Also to clarify, he lost TdF by a mile! Who cares if he was able to win a stage since Froome would win GC even if he was walking up that mountain. And yeah, on Val Martello he rode Hesjedal off his wheel by 7 seconds......truly Pantani-esque. I really dont want to return to that Giro but saying that he wanted to finish with Uran instead of proving he is the best when many doubted it? Thats just plain stupid. If he could crush the field, he would. And yeah, he was best in MTT but seeing that Aru was very close while being much less experienced rider? Does it mean now Aru> Quintana?

Top 5 GT riders (not in pure climbing, GT overall with around 50-60km TT, with 25-30 of those on flat):

1 Froome
1a Contador/Nibali (I suspect Contador can beat Froome, he needs to prove it though)
4 Uran
5 Quintana

 

[Arredondo]

To clarify: references made mostly by Colombians. Also to clarify, he lost TdF by a mile! Who cares if he was able to win a stage since Froome would win GC even if he was walking up that mountain. And yeah, on Val Martello he rode Hesjedal off his wheel by 7 seconds......truly Pantani-esque. I really dont want to return to that Giro but saying that he wanted to finish with Uran instead of proving he is the best when many doubted it? Thats just plain stupid. If he could crush the field, he would. And yeah, he was best in MTT but seeing that Aru was very close while being much less experienced rider? Does it mean now Aru> Quintana?

Top 5 GT riders (not in pure climbing, GT overall with around 50-60km TT, with 25-30 of those on flat):

1 Froome
1a Contador/Nibali (I suspect Contador can beat Froome, he needs to prove it though)
4 Uran
5 Quintana

 

[damian13ster]

You missed him minimizing the losses in Giro MTF stages and crushing the field in TT there. Add some flat TT kilometres or subtract Stelvio and he wins that GC. And thats on the parcours that were pretty much tailor-made for Quintana/Rodriguez battle

Also, he placed 2nd in Giro before as well, same as Quintana did in TdF

 

[Afrank]

To clarify: references made mostly by Colombians.

I'm not Colombian.

Also to clarify, he lost TdF by a mile! Who cares if he was able to win a stage since Froome would win GC even if he was walking up that mountain.

Even if he didn't win the race, you can't deny he demonstrated time and time again his immense talent and climbing abilities there. Plus you have to consider that 4:27 of his gap to Froome was lost in TT's, and it was his first GT competing for the podium (he didn't even enter the race as the protected leader of the team).

And yeah, on Val Martello he rode Hesjedal off his wheel by 7 seconds......truly Pantani-esque. I really dont want to return to that Giro but saying that he wanted to finish with Uran instead of proving he is the best when many doubted it? Thats just plain stupid. If he could crush the field, he would. And yeah, he was best in MTT but seeing that Aru was very close while being much less experienced rider? Does it mean now Aru> Quintana?

My point about Val Martello wasn't that it was pantani performance to beat Hesjedal by 7 seconds. But that he showed how great a climber he was in the way he rode both Hesjedal and Rolland off his wheel and in how much time he gained on the peloton as he lead the whole way up the climb.

And Aru>Quintana when Quintana beat Aru? No, Aru demonstrated there that he was a immense GT talent and Quintana demonstrated again his climbing talent (especially in the way he won, making up most of the gap in the final of the TT).

Top 5 GT riders (not in pure climbing, GT overall with around 50-60km TT, with 25-30 of those on flat):

1 Froome
1a Contador/Nibali (I suspect Contador can beat Froome, he needs to prove it though)
4 Uran
5 Quintana

Just curious, how can you put Uran above Quintana, when Uran has done nothing of the same level as Quintana has or had any performances better then Quintana in any GT?

Edit, read post in reply to Arredondo. Will reply to that.

 

[Arredondo]

You missed him minimizing the losses in Giro MTF stages and crushing the field in TT there. Add some flat TT kilometres or subtract Stelvio and he wins that GC. And thats on the parcours that were pretty much tailor-made for Quintana/Rodriguez battle

Also, he placed 2nd in Giro before as well, same as Quintana did in TdF

Does that make him the 4th best GT rider at the moment? No way, Purito, Valverde are better. And the likes of Pinot and Aru are not any lesser.

He did had some 2 minutes on Quintana after the Barolo TT. But he end up losing the Giro pretty clear. That's not something for the 4th best GT rider.

I thought this list has to be based on riders capacitities? If it is on last results taken in GT's, then it's pretty boring and useluss imo.

 

[Jspear]

To clarify: references made mostly by Colombians. Also to clarify, he lost TdF by a mile! Who cares if he was able to win a stage since Froome would win GC even if he was walking up that mountain. And yeah, on Val Martello he rode Hesjedal off his wheel by 7 seconds......truly Pantani-esque. I really dont want to return to that Giro but saying that he wanted to finish with Uran instead of proving he is the best when many doubted it? Thats just plain stupid. If he could crush the field, he would. And yeah, he was best in MTT but seeing that Aru was very close while being much less experienced rider? Does it mean now Aru> Quintana?

Top 5 GT riders (not in pure climbing, GT overall with around 50-60km TT, with 25-30 of those on flat):

1 Froome
1a Contador/Nibali (I suspect Contador can beat Froome, he needs to prove it though)
4 Uran
5 Quintana

+1 Afrank's last post. Just one more thing: Remember Quintana was sick for a large part of the Giro and he was still able to do what he did. And he crashed on stage 6.

 

[number0]

who's the best?
It's hard to tell...
It depend on too many factors.type of route, weather,ecc.ecc.
I try it

1)Contador tour 2009
2 Froome tour 2013 and Nibali tour 2014
3)Quintana giro 2014

Contador more talent,brave
Froome more strength
Nibali more ductile
Quintana more.......age.

 

[Afrank]

You missed him minimizing the losses in Giro MTF stages and crushing the field in TT there. Add some flat TT kilometres or subtract Stelvio and he wins that GC. And thats on the parcours that were pretty much tailor-made for Quintana/Rodriguez battle

Also, he placed 2nd in Giro before as well, same as Quintana did in TdF

Uran has the TT over Quintana, that true. But Quintana will crush him on any climb. His climbing this year at the Giro didn't convince me in the slightest.

You have to consider the competition Quintana was up against in the Tour compared to what Uran was up against in the Giro as well.

Behind Uran at the Giro was Evans and Scarponi vs. Rodriguez and Contador behind Quintana. That says it all right there.

 

[Angliru]

Of which 4 minutes on a super controversial stage. Put Nibali, Contador or Froome in his situation and you get the same massacre. I forgot to mention that he had to wheelsuck Pozzovivo for a climb in the 2nd week

You fail to mention that he was suffering from some type of ailment in the first 2 weeks or so that limited his ability to ride at his best. I still believe he is just a bit behind Froome and Contador climbing-wise when all 3 are at their best but as he matures he will be even more of a beast in the mountains.

 

[damian13ster]

I'm not Colombian.



Even if he didn't win the race, you can't deny he demonstrated time and time again his immense talent and climbing abilities there. Plus you have to consider that 4:27 of his gap to Froome was lost in TT's, and it was his first GT competing for the podium (he didn't even enter the race as the protected leader of the team).

Ok, that was generalization about nationality. My bad.
I am not trying to deny that he didnt show immense climbing talent (thats why the mention that this is for GT riders, not for climbers), but TTs are part of the race so you cant just say that most of the gap was made there and negate it.

My point about Val Martello wasn't that it was pantani performance to beat Hesjedal by 7 seconds. But that he showed how great a climber he was in the way he rode both Hesjedal and Rolland off his wheel and in how much time he gained on the peloton as he lead the whole way up the climb.

Riding (barely) Hesjedal and Rolland of your wheel suddenly makes you one of the best climbers in the world (many claim the best?). What do you say then about Nibali riding everyone off of his wheel (I would rate Pinot's climbing>either of the riders you mentioned) in TdF by over a minute? I just don't find it impressive at all. And peleton wasnt riding at full speed maybe except for last 1-2kms as shown by frustration from Tinkoff guys and confusion in the group.

And Aru>Quintana when Quintana beat Aru? No, Aru demonstrated there that he was a immense GT talent and Quintana demonstrated again his climbing talent (especially in the way he won, making up most of the gap in the final of the TT).

Of course not, but Aru beat him on actual MTF stage, and obviously it was enough to rate Quintana as best climber after he did that to Froome even though the gap in GC was much higher between them so it had no implications.

Just curious, how can you put Uran above Quintana, when Uran has done nothing of the same level as Quintana has or had any performances better then Quintana in any GT?

Uran has done nothing of the same level as Quintana? Where the hell did you get that from? Come on, he destroys him in time-trialing. Also, so far he took 2nd place in GT (same as Quintana) and it is more than likely that if it wasnt for organizers messing up on Stelvio he would hold on to a big lead in Giro, making his Palmares >>Quintana's. It all comes down to this stage. If you find it epic for other reasons than the mess it created then Quintana>Uran as GC rider. If you find it as controversial and later saw other MTF stages on which Quintana didnt gain much time making it hard to believe he can make up almost 2 minutes (3:30 before Stelvio- 1:26s in MTT) as I did then you rate Uran>Quintana as GC rider (currently)

And thats all on GT route that suited Nairo more than any other I can remember (MTT, hilly ITT)

 

[Angliru]

Is that Moriarty from the Sherlock Holmes tv series?

 

[SeriousSam]

Everyone understands Quintana is really talented. Already one of the best climbers and can become the best, no doubt.

But there actually seem to be some people who think he displayed better climbing ability than Froome in the 2013 Tour. I mean... really? Try to keep distinct how he projected to be (Boy this Quintana guy is good, will become a climbing monster) and how he was (good, but Froome was better)

Let's see Quintana droppping Froome on a mountain when Froome can't afford to let him go. Let's see him produce some incredible ascent times like both Froome and Contador have before we declare him better.

 

[Arredondo]

Uran has done nothing of the same level as Quintana? Where the hell did you get that from? Come on, he destroys him in time-trialing. Also, so far he took 2nd place in GT (same as Quintana) and it is more than likely that if it wasnt for organizers messing up on Stelvio he would hold on to a big lead in Giro, making his Palmares >>Quintana's. It all comes down to this stage. If you find it epic for other reasons than the mess it created then Quintana>Uran as GC rider. If you find it as controversial and later saw other MTF stages on which Quintana didnt gain much time making it hard to believe he can make up almost 2 minutes (3:30 before Stelvio- 1:26s in MTT) as I did then you rate Uran>Quintana as GC rider (currently)

And thats all on GT route that suited Nairo more than any other I can remember (MTT, hilly ITT)

Do you have something against Quintana? Nairo destroyed al his opponents since L'Avenir 2010, where he beat riders like Kelderman, Bardet like they were 3rd-rate climbers.

Uran however, had needed 6 years to actually finish 2nd in a Giro with horrible competition (2013). In the Giro of this year, he lost big time on Quintana on Monte Grappa. A mountain TT reflects climbing capacities at his best.

Uran lost time to the likes of Kelderman, Pozzovivo and Aru on the final climb of Val Martello. We're not talking about Quintana, but about riders who are a class below Quintana when it comes to real climbing. And even on them, Uran loses time. So it shows that Uran is pretty weak when it comes to real climbing.

How do you come to the fact Uran destroys Quintana in ITT's? Have you look at the profile of the Barolo TT in the Giro? That was more of a TT a la Chorges (Tour 2013), with two hard climbs in it. In normal flat TT's, Uran isn't brilliant, and isn't way better then Quintana.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

anyone putting uran above Quintana is best to be ignored in like..forever

 

[damian13ster]

I got nothing against Quintana although I didnt enjoy how the 3 guys lied about what happened on Stelvio descent.
And Uran improved his TT a lot in this season, as evidenced by the time differences between him and Nairo.

Also yes, MTT does reflect climbing capabilities the best. I am not insane and am not going to say that Uran is better climber than Quintana, and that he is in top 5 climbers in general. You cant find a quote with me saying that. All I said he is better as GT rider at this point. And yes, he lost time to all of those guys, but what matters is not whether he lost time. It is HOW MUCH he lost compared to the advantage he gained in TT and hilly/echelon stages that are all part of the grand tour. People seem to forget that 21 day-long races usually contain various kind of stages and not just mountain finishes.

And yes, I did take a look at the profile and length of that TT. Are you suggesting that if it was less climbing on that TT then Quintana would do better than Uran?

 

[gustienordic]

1) Nibali/Contador -> right now I see these two as more or less equal. Depending on the parcours they each have their advantages. If we had seen them go head to head this year it would likely have been epic

3) Froome -> Froome is strong, but was he a one & done? Sky seems to be perfecting that.
4) Quintana -> This is only true for right now, will be a completely different story soon
5) Purito/Valverde -> These two are again pretty darn close to each other I think... Purito has more kick which is great for Giro/Vuelta w/time bonuses and Valverde is more consistent.

 

[Arredondo]

Tirreno-Adriatico 2014, San Benedetto del Tronto 9.1 km:
Quintana 20th, + 38s
Uran 43th, + 46s

Uran results in past TT's

2012:

Giro, Milano-Milano: 53th, + 2.45 (while he rode for GC)
Vuelta: Cambados-Pontevreda: 60th, + 4.02 (rode as domestique)

2013:

Volta a Algarve, Castro-Tavira: 11th, + 2.42
Tirreno, San Benedetto: 29th, + 0.42
Giro, Gabice-Saltara: 12th, + 1.48
Tour of Pologne, Wieslaw-Krakow: 40th, + 4.11
Vuelta: Tarazona: 17th, + 2.42

So, no Uran isn't as good as a TT'er to say he's a better GT rider in general. Quintana is so much better in the mountains, that he will always be a better GT rider then Uran. 100 km TT or not. There's not much difference between the two in a flat TT either.

Ah, ffs, i'm done with it

 

[Afrank]

Ok, that was generalization about nationality. My bad.
I am not trying to deny that he didnt show immense climbing talent (thats why the mention that this is for GT riders, not for climbers), but TTs are part of the race so you cant just say that most of the gap was made there and negate it.

No, you can't. I don't negate the effects TT's have on a race. My overall point here is that it's not irrational to say Quintana may be or is the best climber of the 4. The others being better in the TT then him would be why I would probably put him below Froome and Contador (maybe Nibali too, not sure).

Riding (barely) Hesjedal and Rolland of your wheel suddenly makes you one of the best climbers in the world (many claim the best?). What do you say then about Nibali riding everyone off of his wheel (I would rate Pinot's climbing>either of the riders you mentioned) in TdF by over a minute? I just don't find it impressive at all. And peleton wasnt riding at full speed maybe except for last 1-2kms as shown by frustration from Tinkoff guys and confusion in the group.

I agree, Pinot is better then Rolland and Hesjedal. Compared the the guys of the Giro I would put him about equal with Aru.
I guess it's a matter of opinion what different people thought of his ride up Val Martello, I found it impressive. And I think after the peloton did realize Quintana wasn't waiting (after the descent maybe?) they did start riding pretty hard for the rest of the stage.

Of course not, but Aru beat him on actual MTF stage, and obviously it was enough to rate Quintana as best climber after he did that to Froome even though the gap in GC was much higher between them so it had no implications.

It's not really the individual performances that mark Quintana out as possibly the best climber, but all the performances combined.

Uran has done nothing of the same level as Quintana? Where the hell did you get that from? Come on, he destroys him in time-trialing. Also, so far he took 2nd place in GT (same as Quintana) and it is more than likely that if it wasnt for organizers messing up on Stelvio he would hold on to a big lead in Giro, making his Palmares >>Quintana's. It all comes down to this stage. If you find it epic for other reasons than the mess it created then Quintana>Uran as GC rider. If you find it as controversial and later saw other MTF stages on which Quintana didnt gain much time making it hard to believe he can make up almost 2 minutes (3:30 before Stelvio- 1:26s in MTT) as I did then you rate Uran>Quintana as GC rider (currently)

And thats all on GT route that suited Nairo more than any other I can remember (MTT, hilly ITT)

Bolded: see points in last post.
The rest: Know one really knows what might have happened had they not messed up on Stelvio. The way Quintana rode though in the kilometer and stages following Stelvio makes me think he probably would have won by a nice big margin anyways. He still would have had plenty of stages to take time on including Zoncolan, which he just rode within his limits.

 

[Futuroscope]

How on earth can you rank Uran above Quintana?

 

[Afrank]

One more think, disclaimer, I don't necessarily put Quintana as the best climber of the 4, but as potentially the best of the 4. I'd probably put him about level with an in-form Contador on climbing and maybe Froome.

gustienordic makes a lot of sense though about Froome possibly being a one off. I didn't think he would be after the way he rode all of 2013. But his results this year do make me wonder. We'll see. And he's also right Quintana's place will soon be an entirely different story as he's a rising talent and definitely has the most potential of the 4.

 

[Red Rick]

He gained 6 minutes in 4 mountain stages, of which 4 minutes uphill

fixed for you

It is not our fault that you have not watched races in the last 3 years!

I wasn't saying Quintana wasn't good, I wondered why he's rated higher than the likes of Froome and Contador already

I think the MTT speaks for itself really. Yeah Aru stayed close, but he is a major pure climbing talent like Quintana himself. The rest wasn't even close. Guys that finished in the top finished at 4/5 minutes

But yeah, you'll see for yourself in the Vuelta.. We'll save the quotes..and for nothing, because in August you'll be gone, like all other july watchers

It's great tt, i'm not denying that. Nibali took almost the same amount of time on some of those contenders a year earlier on a way easier mtt though.

Also, don't call me a July fan, that's just ridiculous

You see, you didn't even watched the stage!

I did watch it, I saw he climbed Val Martello 1'30'' faster than the second group, doesn't take away the fact that he gained 4 minutes on the MR and eventual runner up in stage with a lot controversy

Quintana has shown a lot, but I think that Froome, Contador and Nibali all have shown more. I do think Quintana is the purest climber of the 4, but there´s there's more to climbing than the most extreme mountain stages. He's also been beaten a fair amount of times uphill both in and outside of GT's. He hasn't been as dominant as Froome in 2013 or Contador at the start of the year

 

[Escarabajo]

...

I did watch it, I saw he climbed Val Martello 1'30'' faster than the second group, doesn't take away the fact that he gained 4 minutes on the MR and eventual runner up in stage with a lot controversy

Quintana has shown a lot, but I think that Froome, Contador and Nibali all have shown more. I do think Quintana is the purest climber of the 4, but there´s there's more to climbing than the most extreme mountain stages. He's also been beaten a fair amount of times uphill both in and outside of GT's. He hasn't been as dominant as Froome in 2013 or Contador at the start of the year

So it is not 4 minutes. It is 4 min - 1:30 min. And that's taking into account that he pulled all the way up. Because of the altitude changes the group in the back seemed to be going very slow and I did not catch anybody having a good day. Maybe Kelderman and the two guys that took off with him. So there is nothing not to tell me that he would have gained more than 1:30 minutes in that day specifically.

As a Colombian I would have preferred him to start at the foot of the climb with the others. But from what I saw they all looked dead in that group back there.

 

[ILovecycling]

every man who declares Rigo above Nairo in GT ability is setting himself into a position of cycling newbie imho

 

[damian13ster]

Its just an opinion based thread. Quintana's GT results arent much above Uran's, and all of you claiming he is best climber, much better than others, would win by a huge margin anyway, those are all assumptions. And they don't even have much to support them because there were 4-5 other MTF in that race and Quintana wasnt dominant on any. And a claim that he just didnt want to win in a dominant fashion is just stupid. I am basing my opinion on cold-hard facts. If I was to field a team for GT now, I would choose Uran over Quintana in most of the parcours. Situation might be different 1-2 years from now, but at this point this is where I stand.

And your would have......, could have....... frankly, I dont care about that.

And yes, we were all surprised by how Uran improved in TT for this Giro, but he DID improve and he DID put minutes into Quintana on a hilly TT.