Top 5 or 10 Carbon Bikes

[nowhereman]

Aw shucks! Thanks Pop!

 

[Black Dog]

That was a great post Bro. That is the recipe in the bike biz. 1 part technology to 99 parts marketing. It is a shame that the very nature of carbon technology that gives it such great potential for frames also makes it so easy to shape for marketing and not for innovation. So many have drank the koolaid, and believe that 100 grams = 100 km/h. No amount of evidence to the contrary or a lack of evidence in support of their notions will sway them so long as they get the status. It is a form of cognitive dissonance that is only outdone by religion.

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

I hope that works out for you. You can treasure that frame through the years and eventually give it to your son. I can see it now.

Between the "20 times what it cost to make", the fetish for custom bikes, and the idea that I'd pay for a phone, I grant you have a fervid imagination.

But I credit you with reminding me of something: it is possible to care too much about what other people ride and how they spend their money, which is a daisy chain that stretches from the guy with the Wal-Mart single speed resenting the guy with a Scattante all the way to the guy with a Chinese carbon frame resenting the guy with a Pinarello.

 

[Black Dog]

Between the "20 times what it cost to make", the fetish for custom bikes, and the idea that I'd pay for a phone, I grant you have a fervid imagination.

So what is the mark up on a Asian made frame from a big brand? I will wager that it is the order of at least 10x. For the same price what is wrong with getting a custom made bike from a person whom you are paying for labour and skill? Do you steal your phones?

Ride and buy what you want. There is nothing wrong with a critical/satirical look at the nature of the business. It is not hating. If you disagree then add to the debate with an informed position or deconstruct the arguments that you do not like.

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

If you disagree then add to the debate with an informed position or deconstruct the arguments that you do not like.

"I'll bet name-brand frames are marked up 20x."

"I'll bet they're marked up less."

"At least 10x then."

"I think it's less."

"You're wrong."

"No you are."

There, I've advanced "the debate" by a few posts. Nailing Jello to a wall does get old.

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

If you disagree then add to the debate with an informed position or deconstruct the arguments that you do not like.

"I'll bet name-brand frames are marked up 20x."

"I'll bet they're marked up less."

"At least 10x then."

"I think it's less."

"You're wrong."

"No you are."

There, I've advanced "the debate" by a few posts, but this jello isn't going to get nailed to a wall by itself -- please continue...

 

[Black Dog]

Yes, you have indeed advanced the debate. Thanks.

Oh and by the way...I know you are but what am I? Nah Nah Ne Nah Nah.

 

[Black Dog]

"At least 10x then."

"I think it's less."

"You're wrong."

"No you are."

I can't resist. Explain how a $5000 brand name frame can be sold off brand from china for $350? Are they stolen? Oh yea, the decals and paint must cost at least $4000.

 

[Night Rider]

Based on what I know of the difference in manufacturing costs between Taiwan and China, I would say 10x is very understated.

I don’t think it’s a stretch at all to say a carbon frame made in China ends up being sold in a mainstream retail store for around 20x it’s manufactured cost.

 

[the student]

I can't resist. Explain how a $5000 brand name frame can be sold off brand from china for $350? Are they stolen? Oh yea, the decals and paint must cost at least $4000.

the frames you cant get straight out of china are mostly sold by brands for about 1400 a frame... i dont think the ones that cost 4000 dollars are the same ones, on the other hand they might cost 1200 dollar to get from the factury and they will sell for 4000.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

I just spent 6 days on a FUJI SST-3.0 full carbon road rental bike. It's the first carbon bike I've spent that much time

on. From the image, it's pretty clear to see the shaping of the ovalized down and seat tubes, the ovalized (almost rectangular) chain stays, and ginormous head tube. Not so easily seen is the partially obscured BB, which is battleship huge. I felt this made for very efficient transfer of power. It seemed to climb and accelerate pretty well. Not so easily seen in the picture, the top tube has a T-beam shape with the flat part of the "T" on top (making a nice resting platform while waiting for traffic lights to change).

I was hoping to try it out on some coarse chip-seal roads. But unfortunately, I was not able to try the bike out on rough pavement... only asphalt where I was riding. So I have no way of comparing how compliant it is compared to my bike.

I think the bike had Sram Rival gruppo, which was quiet and flawless. The shop owner said the bike as equipped would go for around $1800-$2200... affordable for full carbon. I assume he's being honest because this bike was purely a vacation rental... no purchase in the discussion.

Overall, I'd say it was a really sweet ride. I was happy enough with it that I could see buying one of these, but maybe with a different group set.

Anyone else owned or ridden one of these and have comments about the bike? I guess Geox is using Fuji's, just not sure which model.

On a side note, the shop owner said some things about carbon bikes from Asia that confirms some comments made by other posters in this thread. I can't verify, but some examples were:
1. Carbon bikes coming out of Taiwan are high quality. He said many name brands (e.g. Merckx) are now being made in Taiwan.
2. Good quality is NOT the case with carbon bikes coming out of China, and to avoid a bike made there. All kinds of problems, including allignment. And a mis-alligned C-frame cannot be straightened out.

 

[fatsprintking]

The fuji seems like a very good race bike, particularly for crits and short circuit races. The testing I have seen suggests it is very stiff in both the bb and head tube. They seem to be quite well made as well. Would suit a bigger more powerful rider I think, maybe too stiff for a wee lad.

I think most people need to be more honest about what they actually need, rather than what is "best". There is no best bike, just a bike that is best for you. Most modern bikes are perhaps better than you can ride them.

Personally, I find that wheel and tyre choices have as much if not more impact on how a bike "feels" as the frame does these days. While I like a very stiff bike, my feeling is that most bikes are too stiff for the way most people ride them - but thats just my opinion.

As for cost, I guess a bike is worth what someone is going to pay for it and companies will charge what they think they can get to maximize profits. Same thing happens with cars motorbikes etc. percieved quality is more important than actual quality these days and that is what good marketing is about. If we all swallow it we get what we deserve.

I have having a bit of a debate with another poster about steel frames. Just to test I put my oversize bars and stem on my 20 year old steel frame with a good set of wheels.....it felt pretty good...it would be hard to tink that a bike could be 10k better.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I just spent 6 days on a FUJI SST-3.0 full carbon road rental bike. It's the first carbon bike I've spent that much time
......


On a side note, the shop owner said some things about carbon bikes from Asia that confirms some comments made by other posters in this thread. I can't verify, but some examples were:
1. Carbon bikes coming out of Taiwan are high quality. He said many name brands (e.g. Merckx) are now being made in Taiwan.
2. Good quality is NOT the case with carbon bikes coming out of China, and to avoid a bike made there. All kinds of problems, including allignment. And a mis-alligned C-frame cannot be straightened out.

There's just not that much mass-produced variety of product in the West. Fuji is Advanced Sport International http://www.advancedsports.com/brands.html They are reselling Chinese product, possibly some actual Taiwanese product. The product coming out of the same molds/jigs as many other Western brands.

Good product is coming out of China. The chances the manufacturing has more variation coming out of China is high, but at 1/5 the price, there are lots of brands willing to Q/A when the product lands and they still come out *way* ahead.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

The fuji seems like a very good race bike, particularly for crits and short circuit races. The testing I have seen suggests it is very stiff in both the bb and head tube. They seem to be quite well made as well. Would suit a bigger more powerful rider I think, maybe too stiff for a wee lad.

I think most people need to be more honest about what they actually need, rather than what is "best". There is no best bike, just a bike that is best for you. Most modern bikes are perhaps better than you can ride them.

Personally, I find that wheel and tyre choices have as much if not more impact on how a bike "feels" as the frame does these days. While I like a very stiff bike, my feeling is that most bikes are too stiff for the way most people ride them - but thats just my opinion.

As for cost, I guess a bike is worth what someone is going to pay for it and companies will charge what they think they can get to maximize profits. Same thing happens with cars motorbikes etc. percieved quality is more important than actual quality these days and that is what good marketing is about. If we all swallow it we get what we deserve.

I have having a bit of a debate with another poster about steel frames. Just to test I put my oversize bars and stem on my 20 year old steel frame with a good set of wheels..... it felt pretty good... it would be hard to tink that a bike could be 10k better.

regarding crits, etc, I would agree. I should have noted originally the FUJI STT 3.0 handled very well and was quite stable descending.

On your steel bike, I'm not surprised that it felt pretty good. Good chance that 20-yo 1990-ish bike was probably pretty good frame design. At that time and for the next decade frame builders were using unique (for the time) materials (e.g. carbon, Al, Ti, Sc) with unique properties... but with the intent to mimick the feel of a good steel frame. Nowdays manufacturers can do so much with carbon to get desired characteristics, but I still know people who swear by a good steel frame.

 

[richwagmn]

You got to remember that all Carbon is made in China Taiwan so dont beleive all the hype.

You can get a very good carbon from Hong Kong for $300.USD

That is where most are made under licence

Not true. The top end Treks are still made in Wisconsin.

 

[Notso Swift]

And Time are still made in France (in fact they weave their own carbon on site) while Looks are made in France, Tunisia or Asia depending on the model

DirtyWorks, I think it is fair to say good product CAN come out of China, but often it doesn't because by the time they put the effort in their competitive advantage is gone

I recently (6 months ago) saw a bunch of Extremely high quality "luxury goods" knock offs while in China at a factory, they used the exact materials and hardware as the "French brand" and the labour skills were very high. Near perfect copy that even knowing it was not real and directly comparing to the genuine article I found it basically impossible to fault. Only thing is by the time you added all that up it was about 50% of the price of the real thing and it was still a fake! Moral being the quality is possible, but you need to pay for it. (Not the outragous mark ups on bikes maybe but you still need to pay)

 

[fatsprintking]

Didnt he say "most"???

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

He did say most. Correct me if I'm wrong though, but what I'm coming away with after reading all the posts is that China does produce good quality frames, but if the frame is made in China there seems to be a greater chance of ending up with lower quality / off-spec frames. If that's true and I can save 50% of the cost by buying Chineese-made, AND I plan to spend around 2G's for a quality frame (or 1G for the same Chineese version), I think I would just pay the extra for the assurance of getting a high quality product. But that's just me. I did the same when I bought my Litespeed 10 years ago when I was comparing it against the Chineese-made Airborne Zeppelin. But that way is not for everybody.

 

[richwagmn]

Didnt he say "most"???

Read it again. He said all. Most was referring to Taiwan.

 

[mewmewmew13]

The best carbon bike is the one that fits. The best quality I've seen is from this guy:http://crumptoncycles.com/
I've had the pleasure of seeing his old workshop as well as assembling a few for him. Bar none--unbeatable finish and impeccable design for the individual.
However, I'm in the bike biz and am therefore broke, so I ride a Masi, which is great, and a better ride than the Trek 5900 I was on previously.

Texpat, I've always thought that Masi's have had a certain cachet to them, I would love to own one.
I didn't have much to spend when I bought my new ride, a Wilier Izoard, and I LOVE it ....I don't weigh much and it is fun, handles wonderfully and is FAST!

Get out there and ride some.....

 

[DirtyWorks]

He did say most. Correct me if I'm wrong though, but what I'm coming away with after reading all the posts is that China does produce good quality frames, but if the frame is made in China there seems to be a greater chance of ending up with lower quality / off-spec frames. If that's true and I can save 50% of the cost by buying Chineese-made, AND I plan to spend around 2G's for a quality frame (or 1G for the same Chineese version), I think I would just pay the extra for the assurance of getting a high quality product. But that's just me.

It's me too!

This is where a Western warranty from a brand is a value-add to the Chinese product. It's important to read the warranty. Some of them are so carefully worded and/or have escape clauses that you may as well buy direct.

 

[M Sport]

Correct me if I'm wrong though, but what I'm coming away with after reading all the posts is that China does produce good quality frames, but if the frame is made in China there seems to be a greater chance of ending up with lower quality / off-spec frames. If that's true and I can save 50% of the cost by buying Chineese-made, AND I plan to spend around 2G's for a quality frame (or 1G for the same Chineese version), I think I would just pay the extra for the assurance of getting a high quality product.

You should pay around $450-550 for the chinese direct frame and with that you will get a two year warranty. For the upper price you are getting custom paint and PF30 if you want.

What $2,000 frame are you comparing?

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

You should pay around $450-550 for the chinese direct frame and with that you will get a two year warranty. For the upper price you are getting custom paint and PF30 if you want.

What $2,000 frame are you comparing?

I'm not that far into it yet. I was just throwing out a hypothetical $$ amount. I'm still trying to figure out what I might be interested in, and try to put some bounds/limits on my search.

 

[Barracuda]

Colnago M10 anyone ..... or what about a new Neil Pryde Diablo???

 

[Bordercollie1]

I have scanned the thread and don't think anyone has looked at the difference between lugged and monocoque frames. As far as I know, All the Euro made carbon frames are lugged; Daccordi, Colnago EPS + C59, Time RXR, NXR, some Looks. There is just not the facility in Europe to make monocoque carbon so you need to look closely at anyone claiming otherwise. I don't think there is a huge performance difference between lugged and monocoque, although I am told that lugged frames are more springy and feel less 'dead'. From an engineering point of view I prefer the lugged design, and the fact that the frame can be repaired.

To answer the original post, here are my 7 nominations for the top 10:

A Colnago C40 would be in my top 10 for sheer number of pro wins over 10 years. Lampre colours.
Colnago Extreme Carbon for the skinny tubes. White with Polka dots of course.
The Time VXR bikes that Quickstep rode with Bettini and Boonen
Look (585?) in beige with red logos that Credit Agricole rode in the Jon Vaughters, Stu O Grady era
Yellow Look from the ONCE Jalabert era (Clinic material!)
Road going version of the Lotus TT bike that Boardman rode for his first Yellow at the TDF.
Red Time RXRS. Current bike so couldn't leave it out.