Top 5 or 10 Carbon Bikes

[TexPat]

Someone musta got coal in his stocking.

What are the warranties like on these no-name Chinese frames? I said "sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty." And no, a Chinese PO Box for warranty claims doesn't magically transform a carbon fiber turd into a gem.


So why isn't there a "sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty" for less than $1K? If you think it's because of collusion among bike manufacturers, say so, but don't get angry by the sound of giggling in the back of the room.

Except that there are patents on the most minute of technologies, and while an Asian company may easily churn out Chinarellos, they will always be the underground (with transient companies and transient warranties) because they'll get sued into the margins.

This is a valid point, and one that bears considering. Or to put it another way,
What price piece of mind?
This is what saves the brick and mortar bike shops (myself included). Service!
Futhermore, given carbon's tendency toward catastrophic failure, I'd rather not gamble on the cost cutting measures that some of these companies must make.
My contention is that the top-tier stuff will always have the edge over the off the peg bargain bikes.
You want a cheap carbon frame? Go ahead. Get it.
But it ain't just like what the pros ride!

Why not just spend the 1500 bucks for three years worth of the cheap carbon frames, and get a good custom steel frame?

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

You mean like this one:

http://www.mercurybikes.com/Default.asp?cat=1037

$2500

It's an FM015, which can be bought and shipped to your house in the U.S. for less than $500.

Bear with me cuz I'm not very knowledgeable on carbon frames, which is one reason I started this thread. But I've never heard of the Mercury bike brand. I don't know anyone who has one. Is it a quality frame builder and quality frame? I mean, is it possible the $2500 price is over inflated and it's really only worth $500?

 

[BroDeal]

Bear with me cuz I'm not very knowledgeable on carbon frames, which is one reason I started this thread. But I've never heard of the Mercury bike brand. I don't know anyone who has one. Is it a quality frame builder and quality frame? I mean, is it possible the $2500 price is over inflated and it's really only worth $500?

Mercury, like most bike companies, is no more of a frame builder than I am. They have taken a no-name carbon frame that can be bought from one of several Taiwanese companies for a few hundred bucks, painted it, and marked it up more than 500%. They may not have even painted the frames themselves. Many of the Taiwanese companies will paint frames for a small upcharge, and that is for a end customer ordering a single frame. You can buy that exact same frame for less than $500, and that includes the $70-80 shipping from Taiwan.

I have no idea how successful they are. Marketing a commodity good for a premium price has to be a tough racket. I would think that the business plan for a company like that would be to start out with catalog frames. The next step would be to order frames from a modified mold, so that the frame is cosmetically different even though it is structurally the same. The final step would be for the company to design its own frames; although "designing" could be simply using an Asian ODM.

A company like Blue appears to be following that plan. Their catalog reads like a collection of branded bicycle schwag from Asia, everything from gear bags to handle bars. I thought I read somewhere that their frames are open mold frames, but I am not sure if that is correct or is correct at this point in time.

One thing that you can count on: The price per frame that Cervelo, Specialized, Scott, and such are paying is a hell of a lot cheaper than $500. It has to be around $200 - $300 or less.

 

[oldborn]

I mean, is it possible the $2500 price is over inflated and it's really only worth $500?

No it is not unless you are stealing it from western bike factory warehause stationed in China where your uncle is working. If you are want a good carbon bike do not buy it under 2000-2500 euros, buy alluminium one.

Real Q what is wrong with 500$ "no name" carbon frame, nothing is wrong if you are pleased with low end carbon frame, rear P4 and front Pinnarelo Dogma look a like bike at the end.
Those guys on e bay are having tons of those frames ih theirs pigs house.

Take a look on this company http://www.hongfu-bikes.com/ they are selling very same frames as we can see on e bay or Alibaba.
They are not much concern with patent pending, carbon quality, resarch costs and customer support they are pleased with couple of molds and they are doing well if you are willing to pay for it.

Take a look of some carbon low and midle end caracteristics, both are Monocoque:

Low end: Created using T-700SC, M30J 3K and 60T carbon fiber

High end: Fork TK 1 Carbon 60HM finish 1K 1-1/8” – 1,5”.
Material carbon Pre-Preg T-700SC HM50 T - HS40 – HS60 T 1K.
Assembly System Laminated carbon vacuum formed.

The main difference between those two is in percentage of different carbon fibres used; per example in HS60 T high strength fibre, HM 50 fibre, HS 40 fibre and some kevlar structural reinforcement.
De Rosa even produce his own carbon fibres.

So not much to complain for low end 400-500$ bike frame, i just wish to saw them a little better.

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

They are so cheap if that you could go through several before it would matter.

I'd rather not have the hassle, and would rather use a frame for 10+ years (my previous frame, a Colnago, was ridden for 16 yrs/80K miles) and feel confident the company wasn't going to disappear during that time.

I'm sure it's very cheap to manufacture a CF bike when you only look at the final step of the process, and while there's probably a large markup on many name-brand frames, the rational price (including R&D, setting up a factory, etc.) is probably a lot more than $300 and a lot less than $3,000. Maybe Pedal Force and similar frame brokers are the future of the biz; but like sidewalk vendors, once they become too successful, neighborhood brick-and-mortar businesses might fight back.

 

[Monty Dog]

Quote: De Rosa even produce his own carbon fibres

Which he then uses on the new $1500 R838 frame from hat you can buy for $500 on ebay (carbonzone)?

There will always be a market for high-end frames, but most of these me-too box-shifters and going to struggle when there's a down-turn in the market.
I've never cared for warranties, a properly designed and made product simply shouldn't fail. Limited warranties were created by poor-quality manufacturers mainly in the US to convince gullible buyers otherwise. Those than tend to make the biggest deal about their warranties also have some of the worst reputations for product failure.

 

[oldborn]

Which he then uses on the new $1500 R838 frame from hat you can buy for $500 on ebay (carbonzone)?

Well i do not know for New World, but here is impossible to buy R848 frameset, only complete bike.

Dealer price for R848 complete bike is 1570 euro for Khasmin wheels -Veloce 10spd, and 1635 euro for 105 with Fulcrum R7.
And yes complete R848 bike does not cost more than 500 euros in material-groupset etc, all other costs are related with some stuff what Gaear Grimsrud (nasty nick) said before.

Carbonzone does not have those costs he even do not own shop in real life only selling mediocracy carbon, and take as a second hand at least 150$.

 

[Speedneedle]

De Rosa does not make anything CF.... Mizuno is the supplier to De Rosa.

@Brodeal, "Mercury, like most bike companies, is no more of a frame builder than I am".
Please name some of the brands you are referring to. I would like to know if we are talking on the same level here.

As for the FM015 frames, I have ridden it (in various disguises) and as it certainly isn't a bad frame, it is certainly not a very good frame either. For example, the front end/head tube/torsional stiffness is not very high. So even though you get a decent frame for the money, there's quite a way to go to get top level quality. We need to compare apples to apples here.

 

[BroDeal]

If you are want a good carbon bike do not buy it under 2000-2500 euros, buy alluminium one.

What a complete and utter load of sh!t. Many reputable and large bike companies sell bikes with carbon frames for less than that. Are those bikes crap?

Carbon frames are not made with high tech, highly trained labor. The layup is done by twenty year old girls who are hired off the street. Anyone reading this could do the carbon layup with a couple of hours of training. Using open molds, it simply does not cost much money to make a frame.

I'd rather not have the hassle, and would rather use a frame for 10+ years (my previous frame, a Colnago, was ridden for 16 yrs/80K miles) and feel confident the company wasn't going to disappear during that time.

When it comes to a commodity like Asian made carbon frames, I just don't care. These things are not works of art to be kept and treasured for decades. They are not lugged steel or custom made titanium. In twenty years, or even ten, who will want to be rolling around on an old carbon frame? While I have seen people ooh and ahh over beautiful old restored steel bikes with chromed lugs, I have never seen anyone ooh and ahh over a twenty year old carbon Trek.

You want peace of mind? Instead of spending $500 on one frame, spend $1000 for two. Build one up and put the other in your closet. If the first one breaks then you can go to your closet and get the second frame. Bingo! Instant warranty. You don't even have to wait for the company's warranty department to decide whether the warranty will be honored and ship a new frame to you. Just build up the new frame that night while you watch TV.

I'm sure it's very cheap to manufacture a CF bike when you only look at the final step of the process, and while there's probably a large markup on many name-brand frames, the rational price (including R&D, setting up a factory, etc.) is probably a lot more than $300 and a lot less than $3,000.

What companies are setting up factories in Asia? What "setting up a factory" really means is contracting one of a small number of big Taiwanese companies to build the frames. Nearly all carbon frames are built by three or four Taiwanese companies. Giant's largest U.S. customer is Trek. I believe that Giant sells more frames to Trek than it sells Giant branded bikes to end U.S. customers. Does anyone really believe that Giant uses some super secret Trek technology to build the Trek frames but uses inferior technology to build its own branded frames?

 

[oldborn]

What a complete and utter load of sh!t. Many reputable and large bike companies sell bikes with carbon frames for less than that. Are those bikes crap?

What kind of carbon frames? Yes those carbon fibres are crap if we compare it to alluminium ones for same money which are better for sure. We are talking about low-entry level carbon frames/bikes, here you can not buy good carbon bike for 2000 euro for sure it is a some crap with Sora or something. But you can buy a rocket alluminum US bike made in Taiwan per example Cannodale CAAD 10 with Ultegra.

Carbon frames are not made with high tech, highly trained labor. The layup is done by twenty year old girls who are hired off the street. Anyone reading this could do the carbon layup with a couple of hours of training. Using open molds, it simply does not cost much money to make a frame.

No it does not cost much 3000-4000 $ as a Bro Deal, but you are paying some taxes as a legitimed producer, wright? It is not mine working for sure but someone must made a drawings first. It is simple if you are carbonzone and do not pay nothing at all, and having zero employees or your uncle working for you.

 

[oldborn]

De Rosa does not make anything CF.... Mizuno is the supplier to De Rosa..

Well my apoligize.

As for the FM015 frames, I have ridden it (in various disguises) and as it certainly isn't a bad frame, it is certainly not a very good frame either. For example, the front end/head tube/torsional stiffness is not very high. So even though you get a decent frame for the money, there's quite a way to go to get top level quality. .

In short it is mediocracy carbon frame.

We need to compare apples to apples here

For sure, we can not compare different levels of carbon fibre, we can not even compare Giant, Trek, Colnago with some enthusiastic producer who make 10 bike per year.

 

[BroDeal]

No it does not cost much 3000-4000 $ as a Bro Deal, but you are paying some taxes as a legitimed producer, wright? It is not mine working for sure but someone must made a drawings first. It is simple if you are carbonzone and do not pay nothing at all, and having zero employees or your uncle working for you.

We don't have a VAT in the U.S. There is no sales tax paid by the seller on goods sold to customers in states where the seller has no physical presence. I don't know what kind of import duties bicycles frames are subject to in the U.S., but the few times that I have been charged by customs for buying bicycle stuff from Europe, the charges were small. Judging by the markup that Pedalforce is charging, which includes the cost of a warranty, I don't see that the costs are that much. Obviously a cottage business selling on eBay has nearly no costs above the actual frame cost.

 

[BroDeal]

As for the FM015 frames, ...For example, the front end/head tube/torsional stiffness is not very high....

You know what I find funny. Bike companies are now telling us that their new tapered head tubes and larger headset sizes increase front end stiffness and improve performance, but with all the bikes that I have owned down through the years, I have never ever had a problem with head tube stiffness. And none of the hundreds of people who have bought these on RBR have reported "performance" problems.

 

[oldborn]

We don't have a VAT in the U.S. There is no sales tax paid by the seller on goods sold to customers in states where the seller has no physical presence. I don't know what kind of import duties bicycles frames are subject to in the U.S., but the few times that I have been charged by customs for buying bicycle stuff from Europe, the charges were small. Judging by the markup that Pedalforce is charging, which includes the cost of a warranty, I don't see that the costs are that much. Obviously a cottage business selling on eBay has nearly no costs above the actual frame cost.

Well and i was thinking that Croatia has a ripoff bike market
Maybe Obama might help.

Here if i want that Chinarello it will cost me at least 25% plus. There is no customs on bikes, but fu... VAT is 23%.

 

[BroDeal]

Here if i want that Chinarello it will cost me at least 25% plus. There is no customs on bikes, but fu... VAT is 23%.

This is one of the reasons it is such a good deal for Americans to buy stuff online from Europe. The sellers do not charge the VAT to us.

 

[LugHugger]

What kind of carbon frames? Yes those carbon fibres are crap if we compare it to alluminium ones for same money which are better for sure. We are talking about low-entry level carbon frames/bikes, here you can not buy good carbon bike for 2000 euro for sure it is a some crap with Sora or something. But you can buy a rocket alluminum US bike made in Taiwan per example Cannodale CAAD 10 with Ultegra.



No it does not cost much 3000-4000 $ as a Bro Deal, but you are paying some taxes as a legitimed producer, wright? It is not mine working for sure but someone must made a drawings first. It is simple if you are carbonzone and do not pay nothing at all, and having zero employees or your uncle working for you.

Only buy a CAAD10 if you are a 140lb stage racer. The new frames are NOT the crit monsters of yesteryear (or yesterday if you like 2010 CAAD9's). Previous CAAD9 or earlier owners thinking of upgrading be warned.

With regard to cost, Oldborn, you need to hop over into Italy to buy your bikes. You are getting fully ripped off by your LBS if you can not source a decent carbon frame with better than Sora for €2,000.

 

[M Sport]

People might want to check out this thread on RBR.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=225409

There are other giant threads on the same subject. When one gets to way more than a thousand posts, they lock it and start another. There are similar threads about buying no-name carbon wheels.

Those were interesting reads. I had actually googled the FM015 or whatever model you mentioned in your post the other day and read two threads entirely ... 55+ pages each.

I'm sold. I was looking at building a new training only bike and I'm now going to buy one of those frames and get my own groupset in from wiggle, plus bars etc. Two year warranty is fine with me, the longest I have kept a bike is three years anyway.

I know they won't suit everyones taste for a variety of reasons, some people like to hold on to bikes a lot longer than I do, some people simply do not trust buying online or have the means or know how to build a bike, they like the comfort factor of shopping in a store and having the mechanics there fix everything. Some just like the prestige or supposed increased performance from a name model. Me, I just want a cheap as possible training bike that vaguely replicates my race bike. I have bought all sorts of things online from a variety of countries over the years, some a lot more than $500, so the risk for me is minimal.

I wonder if these online wholesalers are the start of the end for inflated frame prices? Much like LCD and Plasma TV's years ago cost 10+ times more than they do now.

btw, Mercury weren't the only manufacturer reselling that FM015 for five times the price, there was at least one other as well. On top of that I read a review on a bike last night that looked remarkably like the FM028.

 

[BroDeal]

I wonder if these online wholesalers are the start of the end for inflated frame prices? Much like LCD and Plasma TV's years ago cost 10+ times more than they do now.

I do not see how it cannot affect prices in the long term. Right now it looks like such direct purchases are in their infancy. The product still has some glitches in that prep work may have to be done by the buyer. E-mailing a company rep for a quote is not exactly a nice method for purchasing. It is only a matter of time before the purchase experience improves. As it does, the number of potential buyers will increase. An enterprising bike shop could jump on this and do all the prep work and build for the customer, which would radically increase the number of potential buyers.

I think that the big brands will be forced to spend a lot more on pro racing as a way to differentiate themselves from the rest of the brands. They will need a way to convince people to pay a premium for frames. I expect to see a lot more marketing BS in an industry that is already swamped with such BS.

I wonder how well this will work. Eventually, maybe fairly soon, the technology of carbon frames will mature enough that there will be very little difference between any carbon frame. It was not that long ago that a sub 900 gram frame was amazingly light. Now you can get catalog stuff from Pedal Force that is that light. Only so much material can be removed before a frame becomes susceptible to cracking from events that occur during every day wear and tear. Once that limit is reached, marketing will no longer be able to trumpet the weight of their frames relative to another brand's. If everything is within a 100 grams, the difference is too small to matter.

Probably the best example to look at is what happened to aluminum frames. At one point welded aluminum frames was a high tech manufacturing method. It was pioneered by Gary Klein and brought to the masses by Cannondale. Now AL frames are so cheap that you can get them for about $100. It is looked upon as a very cheap material that is used for low end frames, mountain bikes excepted. Does any company make high end AL frames these days?

 

[oldborn]

Only buy a CAAD10 if you are a 140lb stage racer. The new frames are NOT the crit monsters of yesteryear (or yesterday if you like 2010 CAAD9's). Previous CAAD9 or earlier owners thinking of upgrading be warned.

With regard to cost, Oldborn, you need to hop over into Italy to buy your bikes. You are getting fully ripped off by your LBS if you can not source a decent carbon frame with better than Sora for €2,000.

Thanks, i am actualy 70kg wich is prety much the same.
Let me put some Cannodale prices here: Cannodale Super Six 105 Triple 2465 euro, with some 5% cash discount is around 2350 euro.
I will not compare Trek Madonne 3.1, with Super Six but 3.1 105 groupset is 1500 euro which is carbon crap.

People here are going mainly in Slovenia, and LBS are freaking out because that. Here is roughly 80% bike market asociated with sub 700 euro entry level MTB (Kona, Trek, Univega etc). No one is buying road bikes that is why LBS are not very interested in price reduction.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

You know what I find funny. Bike companies are now telling us that their new tapered head tubes and larger headset sizes increase front end stiffness and improve performance, but with all the bikes that I have owned down through the years, I have never ever had a problem with head tube stiffness. And none of the hundreds of people who have bought these on RBR have reported "performance" problems.

And there you have the marketing side that drives product development. Call them gimmicks if you want... anything that makes the bike different and supposedly "better" than others on the market that might also attract more buyers. Another design feature that I've often wondered about is the curved stays and forks on some bikes like the Pinarellos. I understand in concept how the larger diameter head tubes and curved stays might help performance for certain cyclists (e.g. racers or heavy riders), but I wonder how much of this is real or significant improvement.

 

[veganrob]

And there you have the marketing side that drives product development. Call them gimmicks if you want... anything that makes the bike different and supposedly "better" than others on the market that might also attract more buyers. Another design feature that I've often wondered about is the curved stays and forks on some bikes like the Pinarellos. I understand in concept how the larger diameter head tubes and curved stays might help performance for certain cyclists (e.g. racers or heavy riders), but I wonder how much of this is real or significant improvement.

You really have hit it. Manufacturers are constantly trying to do something different than the next guy, market the heck out of it, hope it sells, then others will have to get on board. There has been some nice innovations but others as you say totally market driven. Remember also that the bikes are mostly designed for the stronger Pro Tour riders and then trickle down to us mere mortals. So the benefits may not be so obvious. Shimano doesn't spend millions redesigning 105 gruppo. It is done to DA and couple years later it is Ult, then couple more 105. So we are winning somewhat, but other ways don't make a difference to us except a new toy. Which is still very good.

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

When it comes to a commodity like Asian made carbon frames, I just don't care. These things are not works of art to be kept and treasured for decades. They are not lugged steel or custom made titanium. In twenty years, or even ten, who will want to be rolling around on an old carbon frame? While I have seen people ooh and ahh over beautiful old restored steel bikes with chromed lugs, I have never seen anyone ooh and ahh over a twenty year old carbon Trek.

What are you, a reverse snob now? Seriously, I consider a well-made carbon frame as much a work of art as a lugged steel frame. I don't have any romantic ideas of Italian shops on Tuscan hills putting the lugs on my steel bike any more than I think factories in Taiwan employ child laborers whose organs are harvested when they get too old. I like holding onto my bikes because I don't like our disposable culture ("new every two"), and I'd rather pay more at the outset for a high-quality frame that I can hold onto indefinitely.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

...When it comes to a commodity like Asian made carbon frames, I just don't care. These things are not works of art to be kept and treasured for decades. They are not lugged steel or custom made titanium. In twenty years, or even ten, who will want to be rolling around on an old carbon frame? While I have seen people ooh and ahh over beautiful old restored steel bikes with chromed lugs, I have never seen anyone ooh and ahh over a twenty year old carbon Trek.

... Seriously, I consider a well-made carbon frame as much a work of art as a lugged steel frame. I don't have any romantic ideas of Italian shops on Tuscan hills putting the lugs on my steel bike any more than I think factories in Taiwan employ child laborers whose organs are harvested when they get too old. I like holding onto my bikes because I don't like our disposable culture ("new every two"), and I'd rather pay more at the outset for a high-quality frame that I can hold onto indefinitely.

I think both of you have good points. Regarding BroDeal's comment, I've had my Ti bike now for almost 10 years. When I take in into the shop these days the mechs all ooh-ahh over the bike and wish they had it. And it looks just as bright and shiny as the day I bought it. To be honest, I think I could own and ride that bike for life and never have it wear out... other than normal maintenance.

But I do agree some carbon frames are beautiful looking works of art. However, I would not expect them to hold up as long as a well maintained metal bike, especially the Ti bikes. Does anyone know if carbon frames start looking a little dingy (that oxidized plastic look) after 10 or 15 years?

I don't know, but to get the longest life out of a carbon bike, I expect it would have to be stored when not being ridden in a more climate controlled environment (e.g. not in the garage where it might reach 120F (~49C) in the summer and 10F (~ -12C) in winter). Anyone know how carbon frames hold up in these kind of temperature extremes?

 

[BroDeal]

Seriously, I consider a well-made carbon frame as much a work of art as a lugged steel frame...I like holding onto my bikes because I don't like our disposable culture ("new every two"), and I'd rather pay more at the outset for a high-quality frame that I can hold onto indefinitely.

I hope that works out for you. You can treasure that frame through the years and eventually give it to your son. I can see it now.

"Son, the time has come to give you the family heirloom. No, it's not a gold watch or antique furniture or the trusty six shooter your great great grand dad used to tame the Old West. It's a plastic bicycle frame that I bought twenty years ago in 2011. You can rest assured that the maker--well, I shouldn't call them the maker since they never manufactured anything, but the marketer--scoured the world to find the absolute cheapest labor on the planet to manufacture this baby.

"Now you look a little disappointed, son. You might be thinking that your old man is fool. You might be thinking that for the same amount of money I could have bought something truly unique, like a custom made frame instead of stock plastic. Don't worry. The marketer charged me twenty times what it cost to make, and I was happy to pay it so that I could feel confident that I was not one of the riff raff riding the cheaper and equivalent frames manufactured in the same factory where my frame was made. Those decals, which are all scratched up now--sorry, son--were worth every penny.

"You might also think that I should have spent the same amount of money over many years, buying a new frame with new technology every few years. That would have been too much work, and I did not want to add an extra two pounds to the thousands of pounds of garbage that I create every year. You have to think about the environment after all.

"Now that I think about it, that might have been a good plan. You see, two years after I bought my frame, the industry changed to 1 5/8 inch headsets. There was no appreciable difference in performace, but the marketers convinced the low bandwidth types that they just had to have a stiffer head tube. Not long after that it became really hard to find a headset for my frame. At about the same time, the industry changed the BB spec--yes, again--and all the major manufacturers stopped making the old spec BBs. At the time I bought the frame, there were already no-name Taiwanese frames that weighed the same as my frame. Within two years the no-names were 150 grams lighter and I was stuck with a boat anchor of a frame. I did not lose hope, though. I knew that one day I would hand this treasure on to my one and only son.

"So I give this to you now. You cannot ride it. A compatible headset has not been made in at least ten years, and the original one crapped out even before that. I should have bought a Chris King, but the frame was made at a time when the industry was rapidly changing standards to create artificial demand by making everything obsolete as quickly as possible.

"I also give you this cell phone that I also bought in 2011. Although this phone cost me $500, it was being given away for free with a cell phone plan just a couple of years after I bought it. It also no longer works and the technology was passe after only a few years, but I kept it just for you, son."

 

[the student]

BroDeal... awesome post