Top 5 or 10 Carbon Bikes

[TexPat]

Just got my third carbon bike--a Ridley Damocles ISP. Vastly different in terms of stiffness and handling from the Masi I rode last year. Remarkably stable over rough stuff and in turning.
I agree with the previous post about over-priced faux Italian bikes. Waste of money.
If I had money to burn, I'd have Nick Crumpton build me one. The best bike is the one that fits perfectly!

 

[Notso Swift]

J
I agree with the previous post about over-priced faux Italian bikes. Waste of money.

That really is the thing, made in China/Taiwan and painted in Italy (or Spain Orbea) is still made in China/Taiwan! I have done about 100km on a C50, OK it is an older model, but talk about the Law of diminishing returns... This return is a negative. 20% too dear for what it was, I guess the resale is better, but not that much better

Do remember that real Euro bikes never look good on paper, weight, stiffness what ever, but when you ride, you know

I have a Look, it is now 5 years old and the only reason I think of replacing it is because I "want" a newer one. I am a big boy 195cm/6'4" and 90kg) with a good sprint, so I really test it in the crits.
Other mates have top end Asian bikes, at 3 years they "need" to replace as they start to flex and creak. The bikes cost within +/- 10%, theirs were 2-300g lighter frames, so where is the value?

I would buy a Time, made in France, one of the worlds best frames, though not marketed very well and a bit dear...
Call me a bike snob, but when you see this again and again with premium Asian made bikes (regardless of the label) I think it could be quality control as a big part, but I also think it is things like the resins and process. (Anything that can be attached to a "brand name" is covered.. you want a 12k weave sure we can do that, tick box...)

**Note, I understand that newer and cheaper Looks are starting to be made in Asia, the world really is ending

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Quote: steer clear of colnagos pinarellos etc... over priced heavy bikes which sell on name

All I can say is written by someone whose never had the opportunity to ride one. I have 7 bikes at present, built and ridden plenty others but there's something about the handling of a well-sorted frame that lesser bikes lack - I know for sure that on a couple of occasions my 'price heavy bike' has got me out of situations which lesser ones would have left me in a lot of pain.

The one that probably tops the pile right now is a Colnago C59 - a friend who works for Specialized reckons it's an incredible bike to ride.

Just got my third carbon bike--a Ridley Damocles ISP. Vastly different in terms of stiffness and handling from the Masi I rode last year. Remarkably stable over rough stuff and in turning.
I agree with the previous post about over-priced faux Italian bikes. Waste of money.
If I had money to burn, I'd have Nick Crumpton build me one. The best bike is the one that fits perfectly!

That really is the thing, made in China/Taiwan and painted in Italy (or Spain Orbea) is still made in China/Taiwan! I have done about 100km on a C50, OK it is an older model, but talk about the Law of diminishing returns... This return is a negative. 20% too dear for what it was, I guess the resale is better, but not that much better

Do remember that real Euro bikes never look good on paper, weight, stiffness what ever, but when you ride, you knowI have a Look, it is now 5 years old and the only reason I think of replacing it is because I "want" a newer one. I am a big boy 195cm/6'4" and 90kg) with a good sprint, so I really test it in the crits.
Other mates have top end Asian bikes, at 3 years they "need" to replace as they start to flex and creak. The bikes cost within +/- 10%, theirs were 2-300g lighter frames, so where is the value?

This is interesting/enlightening information. Good stuff.

So what would you think of an Eddy Merckx bike? I've heard, not ridden, they are Italian built, and he does not sacrifice durability for lightness. To me, meaning the EM bikes are a little heavier, which is fine by me.

Secondly, I've got a Litespeed Tuscany. I just ride, and don't do any real sprinting (e.g. races). I do the weekend warrior thing but that's it. It's got a carbon fork with carbon steerer tube. It is maintained well. But somewhere up around the headset I've noticed a little creaking noise. Do you suppose my fork needs to be replaced and how would I know if it did?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

This is interesting/enlightening information. Good stuff.

So what would you think of an Eddy Merckx bike? I've heard, not ridden, they are Italian built, and he does not sacrifice durability for lightness. To me, meaning the EM bikes are a little heavier, which is fine by me.

Secondly, I've got a Litespeed Tuscany. I just ride, and don't do any real sprinting (e.g. races). I do the weekend warrior thing but that's it. It's got a carbon fork with carbon steerer tube. It is maintained well. But somewhere up around the headset I've noticed a little creaking noise. Do you suppose my fork needs to be replaced and how would I know if it did?

Merckx bikes are made in Taiwan at the same plant that makes Pinarello. As for your fork, take it all apart an look for cracks. If you don't find anything it usually ends up being any one of the bolts on your stem, just regrease all for good measure.

 

[M Sport]

**Note, I understand that newer and cheaper Looks are starting to be made in Asia, the world really is ending

And wait there's more ... there are no carbon Look frames made in France, and haven't been for a few years now. The cheaper ones are made in Asia, the more expensive ones in Africa.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

So is made is Asia really all that bad when it comes to carbon frames? I mean how can they screw up the manufacturing? Example, when I bought my Titanium bike I went with Litespeed because the Ti welding process cannot tolerate any impurities in the inert gas environment the welds are done in (and Litespeed warranteed the bike frame to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for life vs. 3 years for most Ti frames made in China). I trusted Litespeeds manufacturing process a lot more because of that warranty.

 

[Finbouy]

Depends on your moral obligation to pay your money, make your choice.
Made in Africa is no different than made in Wales or Belgium. It boils down to whether you want the bike or not.
If it's being made in Africa then there are some pretty decent frame builders out there then, so too Asia.
Just because the Brand has transfered manufacture to a cheap labour country doesn't deflate the bike, how it rides or what you think of it. If it's made well, then who cares where it's made.
Don't assume because it's made in a 3rd world country that the guys building them don't know what they are doing, nor care about what they are doing, because that probably couldn't be further from the truth.

You choose a bike because you love the look/ride/image/price not because it's made in a country..

 

[LugHugger]

Depends on your moral obligation to pay your money, make your choice.
Made in Africa is no different than made in Wales or Belgium. It boils down to whether you want the bike or not.
If it's being made in Africa then there are some pretty decent frame builders out there then, so too Asia.
Just because the Brand has transfered manufacture to a cheap labour country doesn't deflate the bike, how it rides or what you think of it. If it's made well, then who cares where it's made.
Don't assume because it's made in a 3rd world country that the guys building them don't know what they are doing, nor care about what they are doing, because that probably couldn't be further from the truth.

You choose a bike because you love the look/ride/image/price not because it's made in a country..

I hardly think that China and Taiwan count as 3rd world countries. Nor should you assume that salaries are any lower for skilled labour in these countries vs European or American factories. The main reason that the frames are made in the Far East is that this is where the experience and tooling is centered so it make sense to manufacture there on a large scale.

I'm fed up reading systematic xenophobia, unfounded and misplaced protectionism and closet racism from the ignorant in discussions about the origins of bike frames.

 

[DirtyWorks]

So is made is Asia really all that bad when it comes to carbon frames?

Most of the Western branded product is made there. If it is made for Western markets, it is excellent. Really. Will it use the very latest developments in materials engineering? No. It will always be very low cost with sound quality and follow market accepted innovations when made for a Western customer/Western markets.

I trusted Litespeeds manufacturing process a lot more because of that warranty.

And there you have it. Some Western businesses will assume some of the risk of lifetime warranty. I reward those businesses too. Most Chinese/Taiwanese businesses trying to sell their products in the West under their brand name will not take that risk because it makes the product more expensive. Their strength is low-cost manufacture and they stick to it by coming in at a lower cost. Most consumers are willing to take the risk these vendors are passing onto them. Until they get burned.

Getting off-topic, their low-cost strength is super-charged In the U.S., with Tax rules strongly favors importing product and shifting the tax burden to the consumer.

Every global brand has the same basic business model. The U.S. business always operates at a loss by paying a very high price for the product shipped by their parent company manufacturing unit. The high unit cost trick exports the money made in the West. Another benefit is the U.S. entity ends up with an extremely low cost of capital (money to fund the 'profitless' U.S. business comes from some other tax haven) Another benefit to the model is an extremely low Western tax burden because the U.S. company is always 'losing' money by design.

These are the three strikes against what's left of manufacturing industry in the West. Smarter companies that started in the West shifted production to somewhere in Asia and exploit this structure.

The disadvantage it creates for Western-only businesses is enormous. It also shifts the tax burden away from the business. Couple this with non-existent environmental and human capital protections in some parts of Asia and you have some of the reasons why some people prefer paying much more for a Western product.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Nor should you assume that salaries are any lower for skilled labour in these countries vs European or American factories.

Except it is. The last statistic I heard was the labor costs shifting from the U.S. to Taiwan was Taiwanese labor was 1/4 the cost of U.S. labor and 1/5 developed European labor rates. China's labor rates are 1/10 Taiwan's!

The main reason that the frames are made in the Far East is that this is where the experience and tooling is centered so it make sense to manufacture there on a large scale.

Nope. Cost. Cost. Cost. Cost. Non-existent regulations in the countries in discussion keep costs low. This shifts externalities like pollution and human misery onto the least powerful. Most everyone is willing to accept those consequences.

The innovation in materials and processes tends comes out of the West. When the market for the innovation is percieved as 'big enough' a cheaper/faster copy is made in places like Taiwan and China. BTW, there's nothing wrong with that. It is what it is.

I'm fed up of reading systematic xenophobia, unfounded and misplaced protectionism and closet racism from the ignorant in discussions about the origins of bike frames.

I agree with you. The reasons most give for disliking imported product are not well conceived. Having visited Taiwan and worked for the Taiwanese, I assure you it is very western. The food is great, the people are great. It's a very industrious society. Finding the same kind of work ethic in people is uncommon in the U.S. Most just don't understand what it takes to be successful. Most athletic people 'get it' which is one reason why I enjoy competitive cycling.

 

[Notso Swift]

China is not the Third World, nor is it the First World, it is a communist state which by definition means it is in the Second World!

Taiwan is definitely the First World. Regardless of Labour rates being lower so is cost of living, and health, education and infrastructure services, not to mention GDP put it firmly in the developed world.
The only reason they are not a member of the G20 is because China is!

And wait there's more ... there are no carbon Look frames made in France, and haven't been for a few years now. The cheaper ones are made in Asia, the more expensive ones in Africa.

They have had facilities in Africa (Tunisia or Morocco, can't remember which) for about 15 years, but that was not for frames.
With the Frames the most certainly still do produce in France, only for the high end models. When the 695 was launched earlier in the year they did a factory tour and lots of scribes took photo's for us to see

 

[US Patent Exploding Cyclist]

I'm pretty sure it's Tunisia.

 

[Speedneedle]

I hardly think that China and Taiwan count as 3rd world countries. Nor should you assume that salaries are any lower for skilled labour in these countries vs European or American factories. The main reason that the frames are made in the Far East is that this is where the experience and tooling is centered so it make sense to manufacture there on a large scale.

I'm fed up reading systematic xenophobia, unfounded and misplaced protectionism and closet racism from the ignorant in discussions about the origins of bike frames.

Finally one who knows what he is talking about. Thanks.

When it comes to mass-production (yes, Colnago is under that hat, too) Asia has the upper hand. They have massive experience with the tooling, raw material and manufacturing. Now, there's a handful of big factories out there, that produces really good stuff. These factories fabricates for a lot of different brands. All these (premium) brands do their own development and design and the factories build the frames to their specifications. That means that even though a factory builds for 10 brands, the products can be totally different and with different properties as weight, stiffness etc. It all depends on the specifications the brands are setting and preferences they have regarding properties. Some put more emphasis on weight, others on eg. stiffness.
For instance, Giant produces for Colnago and Scott. Carbotec for Pinarello and Storck. A Scott/Giant/Colnago is hardly the same even though they come from the same address originally.
An other aspect is raw material availability. After the plane industry has begun consuming a hell of a lot carbon fibre, compared to the sports industries, it is increasingly harder to get the quantities and qualities needed if you are not based near a carbon fibre manufacturer. Incidentally, most is in Taiwan/China.

 

[Finbouy]

I
I'm fed up reading systematic xenophobia, unfounded and misplaced protectionism and closet racism from the ignorant in discussions about the origins of bike frames.

Then re read my post, I said its where the skills are..

Duh..

 

[BroDeal]

Finally one who knows what he is talking about. Thanks.

When it comes to mass-production (yes, Colnago is under that hat, too) Asia has the upper hand. They have massive experience with the tooling, raw material and manufacturing. Now, there's a handful of big factories out there, that produces really good stuff. These factories fabricates for a lot of different brands. All these (premium) brands do their own development and design and the factories build the frames to their specifications. That means that even though a factory builds for 10 brands, the products can be totally different and with different properties as weight, stiffness etc. It all depends on the specifications the brands are setting and preferences they have regarding properties. Some put more emphasis on weight, others on eg. stiffness.
For instance, Giant produces for Colnago and Scott. Carbotec for Pinarello and Storck. A Scott/Giant/Colnago is hardly the same even though they come from the same address originally.

LOL. Ya gotta love this. On one hand the we need to be assured that all the high tech design was done by white men instead of asians. On the other hand we need to be assured that the high tech manufacturing was done by asians who have expertise that western countries do not have (despite developing all the technology). And never a word is said about cost.

Frames are made in Asia because they costs less than $300 a frame/fork. Western bike companies need to maintain their marketing BS about carbon so they can continue to sell suckers those frames for $3000 or more. They don't want people wondering why something as simple as a bicycle frame that is sold for thousands of dollars cannot be manufactured at home. The total disconnect between the manufacturing cost and the retail price is why there are zillions of upstart bike companies. The market is flooded with carbon frames. Buy some catalog frames in volume, slap on your own paint job and decals, jack the price to ten times what you paid for a frame, and you too can be a bike manufacturer.

It is telling that high end Treks made in the U.S. cost roughly the same as Cervelos when Cervelo is too cheap to even manufacture in Taiwan; they manufacture in China.

 

[LugHugger]

Then re read my post, I said its where the skills are..

Duh..

My comments were not specifically aimed at your post or you. I apologise if you felt that they were.

I would suggest that you reappraise your knowledge of China and Taiwan and their relative levels of economic development though.

 

[LugHugger]

LOL. Ya gotta love this. On one hand the we need to be assured that all the high tech design was done by white men instead of asians. On the other hand we need to be assured that the high tech manufacturing was done by asians who have expertise that western countries do not have (despite developing all the technology). And never a word is said about cost.

Frames are made in Asia because they costs less than $300 a frame/fork. Western bike companies need to maintain their marketing BS about carbon so they can continue to sell suckers those frames for $3000 or more. They don't want people wondering why something as simple as a bicycle frame that is sold for thousands of dollars cannot be manufactured at home. The total disconnect between the manufacturing cost and the retail price is why there are zillions of upstart bike companies. The market is flooded with carbon frames. Buy some catalog frames in volume, slap on your own paint job and decals, jack the price to ten times what you paid for a frame, and you too can be a bike manufacturer.

It is telling that high end Treks made in the U.S. cost roughly the same as Cervelos when Cervelo is too cheap to even manufacture in Taiwan; they manufacture in China.

No argument with any of this from me. This is part of the reason that I will never buy a Brand carbon frame made in Asia. No issue with where or how it's made - lots of issues with how much value I am deriving. Perversely, I am 'happy' to pay for local craftsmanship in steel, titanium or carbon.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I'm pretty sure it's Tunisia.

Algeria..old French colony.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

No argument with any of this from me. This is part of the reason that I will never buy a Brand carbon frame made in Asia. No issue with where or how it's made - lots of issues with how much value I am deriving. Perversely, I am 'happy' to pay for local craftsmanship in steel, titanium or carbon.

Why 'metal' bikes are so popular today. US made steel and ti are not only more durable than $zillion carbon from Asia but often cheaper as well.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2010-cervelo-s3-6419.html
$4150

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2011-wilier-cento1-sl-6414.html
$5000

Compare to this-

http://moots.com/our-bike/road/vamoots-rsl/overview/

$4000

Pretty easy.

 

[LugHugger]

why 'metal' bikes are so popular today. Us made steel and ti are not only more durable than $zillion carbon from asia but often cheaper as well.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2010-cervelo-s3-6419.html
$4150

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2011-wilier-cento1-sl-6414.html
$5000

compare to this-

http://moots.com/our-bike/road/vamoots-rsl/overview/

$4000

pretty easy.

qed.....

 

[the student]

Why 'metal' bikes are so popular today. US made steel and ti are not only more durable than $zillion carbon from Asia but often cheaper as well.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2010-cervelo-s3-6419.html
$4150

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2011-wilier-cento1-sl-6414.html
$5000

Compare to this-

http://moots.com/our-bike/road/vamoots-rsl/overview/

$4000

Pretty easy.

well you picked some outrageously priced frames anyway...

 

[BroDeal]

Why 'metal' bikes are so popular today. US made steel and ti are not only more durable than $zillion carbon from Asia but often cheaper as well.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2010-cervelo-s3-6419.html
$4150

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2011-wilier-cento1-sl-6414.html
$5000

Compare to this-

http://moots.com/our-bike/road/vamoots-rsl/overview/

$4000

Pretty easy.

Exactly. I have a Moots. I have been thinking of buying an Eriksen next year. Here is what is funny. I can call Eriksen and speak with Kent Eriksen himself, talk about what I want, how I want the geometry tweaked from my Moots, and he will send me the blue print that he has drawn up that shows the proposed frame. After I sign off on the proposal, the frame will be built in Colorado. While Steamboat Springs is not exactly Vail or Aspen, it is certainly not Pueblo or Ding Dong, [Holy freakin sh!t! The word filter stars out the word dong if you don't get bypass it.] China. The total price for a custom, made in the U.S. frame will be less than what the carbon con artists of the industry are charging for stock frames cranked out of Asia by the thousands. That does not make sense.

For a real shocking figure, take a complete top end bike by a company like Specialized then subtract the cost of the wheels and the components to get what they are jacking you for the frame. The price is outrageous even if you don't take into account that the maker gets a whole gruppo from Shimano or SRAM for a price that is less than what the shifters would cost you to buy at retail.

The whole freaking industry is a scam. Bike companies have been ripping off the consumer by outsourcing manufacturing to the cheapest place on the planet they can find while jacking the price to insane levels. It is only fair that the consumer use the same technique on the bike companies. My next carbon bike is going to be a no-name frame from Taiwan, like an FM015. I'll make my own decals for it, and it will still cost less than $500 including the shipping from Taiwan to my doorstep.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

well you picked some outrageously priced frames anyway...

And something else about the carbon I picked...where they were made. Pretty expensive decals.

 

[oldborn]

I am not defending big guns, but those 300-400$ TT framesets made in China are about 2kg each, so we must make a difference between low and high end carbon fibre. I would choose alluminium TT frameset instead.

Also if we take a look on Cervelo P4 frameset dealer price is 2733 euro, and MSRP is 4100 euro. Complete bike with DA is 6235 euro dealer price and 10599 euro MSRP.

If we take a look on Merckx EMX5 with DA 7900 dealer price is 3608 euro and MSRP is 6495 euro.

So where the money goes, hmm? If those bikes where made in US or Europe their price would be at least 15-20 % higher than made in Asia.

Let me take a example, if i buy EMX5 from Merkcx for 3608 euro it will cost with shipping and bank fee costs about 3700 euro max for one piece.
Next step is that i must pay VAT 23% and forwarder papers costs, it will be not 3700e, but about 4600 euro.

Than i must add another 23 % VAT + 10% profit+ all other costs (bookeeper, phone costs, etc) 100 euro, which gonna lead us to about 6350 euro.

Let say that i will take 460 euro per bike, hmm? To much. I do not know VAT % in other countries but let assume that is arround 20%???
Real question is how much that bike or P4 realy cost in factory, by mine estimation complete P4 does not cost more than 3000-3500$ in factory, without shipping or any other costs so roughly half a dealer price. That is my thougts on that.

Yes it is a big ripoff for sure, but can you buy Formula1 car of Alonso? Noooo. Can you buy Thor Hushovd bike, yes! There i see a real madness along with that BB right, Di2, Hollowtech, HammerSchmidt, wonder cranks nonsens.

 

[BroDeal]

I am not defending big guns, but those 300-400$ TT framesets made in China are about 2kg each, so we must make a difference between low and high end carbon fibre. I would choose alluminium TT frameset instead.

The actual weight of the road frames is typically 1000 - 1200 grams, depending on model.