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Top Team Thrown out of Baby Giro after Police Raid

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Apr 25, 2009
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Well done the authorities, Italians again eh? :rolleyes:

Still, big backslaps for Ivan Basso (who still points out that he didn't actually test positive, the little pointscorer) and Ricardo Ricco, warmly welcomed back by your quickly forgetting (?), forgiving Tifosi.
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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Colm.Murphy said:
Doping was not "legal", it was just not "banned".

Same issue in American baseball with steroids. The use of ill-gotten medicines is still unlawful.

Doping was not legal back in the historic editions?
They did dope though, didn't they?

icefire seemed to be suggesting the historic editions were clean:
"If they raced the historic editions long and hard, albeit slower, why can't the modern editions be the same way?"
 
Feb 21, 2010
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Polish said:
Doping was not legal back in the historic editions?
They did dope though, didn't they?

icefire seemed to be suggesting the historic editions were clean:
"If they raced the historic editions long and hard, albeit slower, why can't the modern editions be the same way?"

They did dope, they've been doping in one form or another, since someone drew a start line, a finish line and someone yelled "Go!".

They could race 250kn stage, to me though that is begging for the "recovery" techniques that seem to be the center of the Italian raid.

My point is, it would seem to be setting themselves up for failure if they on one hand say "Race Clean(er)" and then do not reign in, just a bit, the types of distance/vert gains they currently ask. The racing would not suffer one bit over 3 weeks. And the "need" for the "recovery" would not be as implied.

Yes, doping can/will exist, even if the race was 1km, but it gives them a chance to modify behavior.
 
May 26, 2010
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gingerwallaceafro said:
Well done the authorities, Italians again eh? :rolleyes:

what's the problem, Italian police are taking it serious. When they take it serious the rest will fall into line and this is the way to clean it up...prison as a threat for doping will soon have riders staying clean.

gingerwallaceafro said:
Still, big backslaps for Ivan Basso (who still points out that he didn't actually test positive, the little pointscorer) and Ricardo Ricco, warmly welcomed back by your quickly forgetting (?), forgiving Tifosi.

the tifosi in italy know the score and fully accept it...it is sad but that is the italians for you, as long as they win, however they achieve that is not a problem, unless they get caught, which they get into trouble for..getting caught that is...

but i have said it already that it will take police federations to combat this with serious fines and prison sentences and doping will all but disappear.

In my opinion Di Luca got caught because he 'killed' a stage of the Giro in Milan and that sealed his positive along with he the fact he only came second overall. Zomegeran probably gave the nod to reveal his test...

but i see him out training all the time and looks untroubled by it all...:mad:
 
Jul 25, 2009
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"The organizers require that the riders eat together, and they also house them in basic communal living arrangements. Racers are not allowed contact with their director sportif outside of the race, but they are allowed to receive massages from the team soigneurs. .... Each night, the riders listen to talks given by vital people and riders in the cycling industry."

Isolating people from part of their usual support network, then making them listen to talks on carefully selected topics.....immersing young riders in cycling culture :p

Actually there is merit in trying to deter doping during stage races through surveillance IMO. What about a scenario where riders are all in one hotel, and have a curfew? The time to do some testing and room searches is just after the start of the curfew. Riders can only leave the hotel in exceptional circumstances and under supervision, or they get DQd. Support staff can leave, but they can't return till after 5am. This would stop the sneaky evening microdose to mask blood transfusions, without having to wake riders up for testing or do intrusive and expensive 24/7 surveillance.
 
Apr 25, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
what's the problem, Italian police are taking it serious. :

No problem with that Benotti, I think that's exemplary. However, it's going to be a long time before doping is seen truly for what it is in Italian cycling culture - much like football hooliganism.
 
Sep 21, 2009
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Polish said:
Doping was not legal back in the historic editions?
They did dope though, didn't they?

icefire seemed to be suggesting the historic editions were clean:
"If they raced the historic editions long and hard, albeit slower, why can't the modern editions be the same way?"

Not really suggesting that old editions were clean. Just that the performance boost capability of old PEDS was small compared to that of today's. Improved knowledge of diet, training methods as well as advanced technology (bikes, power sensors, etc) can make for a clean rider of today perform at a level that may compare to that of a dirty rider of 30 years ago or more.

In the end, what makes a race entertaining is the fight among contenders, not their average speed. So even if a clean peloton today were slower than the peloton of 30 years ago (or more), they would still be able to ride long stages with several climbs and make for an interesting race.

Why don't they do it? Prisoner's dilemma.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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gingerwallaceafro said:
Still, big backslaps for Ivan Basso (who still points out that he didn't actually test positive, the little pointscorer)
He actually avoids the topic.

and Ricardo Ricco, warmly welcomed back by your quickly forgetting (?), forgiving Tifosi.
Riccardo Riccò, booed all the time everywhere. His training rides must be hell. He has his own fans, and was lucky that his comeback race, Coppi & Bartali, was on his home roads, but the prevalent attitude in Italy is that of hate for him.

This might have more to do with his character and manners than his doping, though - compare with the widely idolized, so well-behaved and humble Basso.

And forgetting and forgiving tifosi do recognize that they at least have paid for their sins, unlike so many others.
 
May 26, 2010
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gingerwallaceafro said:
No problem with that Benotti, I think that's exemplary. However, it's going to be a long time before doping is seen truly for what it is in Italian cycling culture - much like football hooliganism.

everything in italy takes along time to correct, sadly, but there a lot of italians who do not like the 'face' aspect of italian society....

football hooliganism has driven lots of normal football fans away from games, most stadiums are empty unless it is a very big match...the games are very cheap to go and watch yet most stay away due to the violence..

the doping in cycling is something that goes on behind closed doors. what probably would only wake people in italy( and the world) up to the doping and how wrong it is is the modern equivalent of watching a Tom Simpson moment of someone dying on a mountian on their bike and i really really hope it does not come to that...
 
May 26, 2010
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Leopejo said:
He actually avoids the topic.


Riccardo Riccò,

This might have more to do with his character and manners than his doping, though...

And forgetting and forgiving tifosi do recognize that they at least have paid for their sins, unlike so many others.

i agree with the assesment on Ricco, he is not widely liked in Italy, and his girlfriend and her CERA case would lead more people to point fingers at him rather than her as Italy is a traditional society where he men and women roles are still very very traditionally expected. He is the father of the child she had* and for her to be taking such substances, well he would be blamed as he has tested positive and she would be seen as been under his influence in their relationship...

i expect the baby was born, but not up to date on that...
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
everything in italy takes along time to correct, sadly, but there a lot of italians who do not like the 'face' aspect of italian society....

football hooliganism has driven lots of normal football fans away from games, most stadiums are empty unless it is a very big match...the games are very cheap to go and watch yet most stay away due to the violence..

the doping in cycling is something that goes on behind closed doors. what probably would only wake people in italy( and the world) up to the doping and how wrong it is is the modern equivalent of watching a Tom Simpson moment of someone dying on a mountian on their bike and i really really hope it does not come to that...


You only have to look at the faces and bodies of these relatively young men to know they are dying by degrees. The confidence their handlers, doctors and they have isn't shared by their livers, kidneys and lower gastro-intestinal organs. None of these drugs help those primary functions over the long haul and I'm afraid the legacy will be alot of pros dying in their 50's & 60's.
 
May 26, 2010
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Oldman said:
[/color]

You only have to look at the faces and bodies of these relatively young men to know they are dying by degrees. The confidence their handlers, doctors and they have isn't shared by their livers, kidneys and lower gastro-intestinal organs. None of these drugs help those primary functions over the long haul and I'm afraid the legacy will be alot of pros dying in their 50's & 60's.

yeah but to joe public who tune in for the TdF, they cant see it, it gets lost in the spectacle, but in all likely hood they'll never see unless its captured by an amateur because tv would not broadcast what happened to Simpson on tv today live...

but they are doing untold damage to themselves, LA and his usage of HGH as a teen no doubt contributed, wonder what his body will tell him in 10-15 years..
it is a sad system that pros follow for very little reward. Robert Millar reckons they do it for the love of the sport, as they would make more money in other professionals for lots less abuse.....it makes you wonder....sad really to suffer so much for love, it seems they are slaves to the system.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
yeah but to joe public who tune in for the TdF, they cant see it, it gets lost in the spectacle, but in all likely hood they'll never see unless its captured by an amateur because tv would not broadcast what happened to Simpson on tv today live...

but they are doing untold damage to themselves, LA and his usage of HGH as a teen no doubt contributed, wonder what his body will tell him in 10-15 years..
it is a sad system that pros follow for very little reward. Robert Millar reckons they do it for the love of the sport, as they would make more money in other professionals for lots less abuse.....it makes you wonder....sad really to suffer so much for love, it seems they are slaves to the system.

There was a photo-shopped Outside magazine cover with LA posted by Roland Rat on the Lance Armstrong thread. I can't retrieve it now (Outside attorneys in action?) but it tells the tale. And that's after they "purtied" him up!
 
May 26, 2010
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Oldman said:
There was a photo-shopped Outside magazine cover with LA posted by Roland Rat on the Lance Armstrong thread. I can't retrieve it now (Outside attorneys in action?) but it tells the tale. And that's after they "purtied" him up!

i'd like to see that if any can dig it out...

when you say 'purtied' him up, did you mean make the bulge in his cycling shorts bigger:p
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
but they are doing untold damage to themselves, LA and his usage of HGH as a teen no doubt contributed, wonder what his body will tell him in 10-15 years..

Oldman said:
There was a photo-shopped Outside magazine cover with LA posted by Roland Rat on the Lance Armstrong thread. I can't retrieve it now (Outside attorneys in action?) but it tells the tale. And that's after they "purtied" him up!

Benotti69 said:
i'd like to see that if any can dig it out...

when you say 'purtied' him up, did you mean make the bulge in his cycling shorts bigger:p
@ HuffPo

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/175450/thumbs/s-LANCE-ARMSTRONG-OUTSIDE-MAGAZINE-large.jpg

story: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/16/lance-armstrong-outside-m_n_614647.html

s-LANCE-ARMSTRONG-OUTSIDE-MAGAZINE-large.jpg


StrongArm's head has grown as much as Bottle's. Even accounting for the receding hairline visual illusion. Much too, too much, HGH.