Total Disillusionment

[blackcat]

That's when the marginal gains come into play.

cumulative marginal gains

transcend

sniag lanigram

 

[blackcat]

While I understand the disappointment and cynicism - I feel it strongly myself - I also continue to watch. I just wish I could believe that Sagan was clean, but until we achieve something better than what we have today, my suspicious quotient remains on orange alert.

i will watch sagan, like i watched ricco.

they entertain, but it is bitter. because i dont wanthemtotommysimpsononme

 

[sittingbison]

i will watch sagan, like i watched ricco.

they entertain, but it is bitter. because i dont wanthemtotommysimpsononme

exactomundo

 

[blackcat]

nor,

flojo'onmeneither

 

[RobbieCanuck]

And yet, come the next big race, everyone will be back watching.

Do you think so? Maybe a couple of years ago you would be 100% correct but I sense this is changing. I think real fans who understand the concept of what athletics is supposed to be all about are really, really jaded with cycling. The cheating was just too massive to ignore. In my case I am not even looking forward to the Giro or the TDF because I am just too cynical and disillusioned to believe it will be clean.

And who in their right mind wants to watch a bunch of vain glorious doped up riders

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

And who in their right mind wants to watch a bunch of vain glorious doped up riders

You say that as if this is a new phenomenon?

Well, I guess time will tell. We have RVV, PR and LBL coming up plus Giro and 100th edition of Tour not long after.

 

[Hillavoider]

I haven't. What are you going to do in July?

http://youtu.be/MCszGx9LZyk

if it was all mountains then great! but if i have to watch brads ugly mug for 3 weeks forget about it

 

[MarkvW]

Do you think so? Maybe a couple of years ago you would be 100% correct but I sense this is changing. I think real fans who understand the concept of what athletics is supposed to be all about are really, really jaded with cycling. The cheating was just too massive to ignore. In my case I am not even looking forward to the Giro or the TDF because I am just too cynical and disillusioned to believe it will be clean.

And who in their right mind wants to watch a bunch of vain glorious doped up riders

There will always be fans eager to watch a bunch of vainglorious doped up riders! That's one thing that the "real fans" and the "unreal fans" have in common.

 

[peterst6906]

And who in their right mind wants to watch a bunch of vain glorious doped up riders

It's certainly not "the beautiful sport", but that doesn't make it boring and un-entertaining either. It's still grueling and tactical (at least when the Skyborgs aren't dominating).

So I'll be watching for sure, especially the weeks between the Giro and the TdF and the day after the rest days in the TdF. There's always guaranteed to be a drug scandal then. Big scandal before the tour and small fry popped during.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

It's certainly not "the beautiful sport", but that doesn't make it boring and un-entertaining either. It's still grueling and tactical (at least when the Skyborgs aren't dominating).

So I'll be watching for sure, especially the weeks between the Giro and the TdF and the day after the rest days in the TdF. There's always guaranteed to be a drug scandal then. Big scandal before the tour and small fry popped during.

I agree that watching a grueling and tactical race is entertaining, but if the gruel is dope, what's the point? Say some guy pulls off a classic sprint, but he's doped, where is the excitement in that? Wow, great maneuver, but so what! Say a guy attacks at turn 20 on AdH and leaves the yellow jersey in his dust. Pretty impressive but so what!

The temporary high in watching such tactics is instantly lost by the knowledge the guy cheated. How is that entertaining?

And how is watching the TDF in anticipation of the inevitable dope scandal fun? Don't get me wrong but if that is why you watch cycling, you might reconsider what you consider entertainment.

 

[coinneach]

I am constantly amazed by the certainty posters have that winning = doping.

Just think what you're missing....this year has seen some great racing already and its only March.

Trouble is, someone has to win a race....better to enjoy that or pack it in, I'd have thought.

Think I'll give the clinic a break until the end of Fuentes trial: it is so boring and repetitive, without shedding any new light on what's going on.

Enjoy!

 

[MarkvW]

I haven't. What are you going to do in July?

http://youtu.be/MCszGx9LZyk

Go on a bike tour, of course!

 

[D-Queued]

While I understand the disappointment and cynicism - I feel it strongly myself - I also continue to watch. I just wish I could believe that Sagan was clean, but until we achieve something better than what we have today, my suspicious quotient remains on orange juice alert.

A nod to Ferrari on that one!

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

I am constantly amazed by the certainty posters have that winning = doping.

Just think what you're missing....this year has seen some great racing already and its only March.

Trouble is, someone has to win a race....better to enjoy that or pack it in, I'd have thought.

Think I'll give the clinic a break until the end of Fuentes trial: it is so boring and repetitive, without shedding any new light on what's going on.

Enjoy!

Until the sport proves itself to be clean and I wouldn't be rushing to believe what those inside the sport of cycling are telling us.

Been there done that got the scars to prove it.

But if posters want to believe in miracles and forget what 1+1 is fine.

 

[Franklin]

I am constantly amazed by the certainty posters have that winning = doping.

And there is your problem. Factually winning=doping has been true from 1990 until 2011.

Anyone who believes that all of a sudden a whole clean team manages to break that spell without any real evidence except faith is clearly not basing his beleif on facts but on emotion.

Add to that all the red flags and then you see why being suspicious is infintely more reasonable than the "I believe!" stance.

 

[D-Queued]

And there is your problem. Factually winning=doping has been true from 1990 until 2011.

Anyone who believes that all of a sudden a whole clean team manages to break that spell without any real evidence except faith is clearly not basing his beleif on facts but on emotion.

Add to that all the red flags and then you see why being suspicious is infintely more reasonable than the "I believe!" stance.

Miracle doubter.

Dave.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I am constantly amazed by the certainty posters have that winning = doping.

Well here is just one example, go ahead and explain it away.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France

 

[D-Queued]

Well here is just one example, go ahead and explain it away.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France

Wikipedia is crowd-sourced, dummy.

That was easy.

Dave.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

I am constantly amazed by the certainty posters have that winning = doping.

Just think what you're missing....this year has seen some great racing already and its only March.

Trouble is, someone has to win a race....better to enjoy that or pack it in, I'd have thought.

Think I'll give the clinic a break until the end of Fuentes trial: it is so boring and repetitive, without shedding any new light on what's going on.

Enjoy!

That is what 25 continuous years of systemic doping, cheating, lying and prevaricating by riders, DSs, team management, sponsors , organizers and the UCI will will do. If you don't get it by now you never will.

The culture of doping in cycling still exists. "Great racing" - really. What assurance can you give anyone it was clean? The thing is lots of fans are packing it in until the peloton takes responsibility to prove to fans they are pristine clean. You might want to dust off your rose tinted glasses.

 

[Jeremiah]

I am constantly amazed by the certainty posters have that winning = doping.

Just think what you're missing....this year has seen some great racing already and its only March.

Trouble is, someone has to win a race....better to enjoy that or pack it in, I'd have thought.

Think I'll give the clinic a break until the end of Fuentes trial: it is so boring and repetitive, without shedding any new light on what's going on.

Enjoy!

I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be..

Do it for da chidren....

 

[martinvickers]

What assurance can you give anyone it was clean? The thing is lots of fans are packing it in until the peloton takes responsibility to prove to fans they are pristine clean.

In which case, they are packing it in permanently, and should be honest with themselves.

You cannot prove a negative. Full stop. You can't prove s/one never doped. It's asking for the impossible.

I get your pain, Robbie, I honestly do - unlike some others, you don't seem to derive any perverse amusement from the idea of wild doping. Maybe people should just hand in their card and leave the sport, I don't know.

I fell in love with the sport, properly in love, on La Plagne in 1987. I'd loved watching Lemond before, and RTE showed Giro highlights, and I had been following Kelly, by far my favourite rider (and my dads) for years. but it was a summer glued to the 87 tour that did it. And that miracle up la plagne transfixed me. Even if I didn't really warm to Roche.

It was a sham. He was doped to the gills. So was the man he was chasing. I may as well have watched motorbikes.

All my youthful heroes had feet of clay, it turned out. Perversly, Froome complained of the same thing with Basso.

The next two decades of my life i spend tutting at the screen. I didn't like Indurain, though by all accounts he's a lovely guy, if tainted. I loved watching Pantani, but didn't believe a second of it. I spent years hoping someone would push Armstrong off a mountain. Tv coverage or no, I'd have given that man an alibi.

So I don't believe in CLEAN sport. At best I believe there is a nobility in trying to clean it up, to make incremental improvements. And you find a little hope where you can, and you look for actual evidence, not sarcasm and innuendo.

Hell, I remember people sneering that Lemond was doped, because all americans cheat. My dad was one of them (some perceived, probably non-existant Lemond-Kelly spat was the reason, no doubt)

But If I'm let down now, I've learned not to take it personally. It says nothing about me. I don't need to cringe, or feel embarrassment if a cheat is unearthed, whether I liked/believed that cheat or not. And I don't need to protect myself or my reputation from the fallout of being wrong by always assuming the worst of everything and everybody, so i can never be 'a sucker'.

Cynicism is just naivete in a James Dean jacket; the same thoughtless, self-congratulating thing, but with an attitude. Not for me, thanks.

But I'm also unforgiving when they are caught. No pity from me for Ricco, or Millar for that matter. And that goes for Irish cheats too. That's my part of the bargain I suppose.

Maybe some people really need some time away from the game. Any joy they once had in it seems long gone. and however funny it is to watch people from both sides lose their nuts over various teams and persons, after a while it's going to lose its amusement value, even for me.

Ah well, my 2c

 

[horsinabout]

Not so much in the way of ranting...just nicely constructed thoughts

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So I don't believe in CLEAN sport. At best I believe there is a nobility in trying to clean it up, to make incremental improvements. And you find a little hope where you can, and you look for actual evidence, not sarcasm and innuendo.

The problem is, we are being told cycling is so much cleaner now. Yet the donkeys are still turning into racehorses.

No Marino Lejaretta's anymore martin.

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

You cannot prove a negative. Full stop. You can't prove s/one never doped. It's asking for the impossible.

<snip>

For me this no longer holds with cycling (or most monied pro sport). Yes you cannot prove a negative, but by jezuz you can pretty damn well get close if your intention is to prove you are not doping and we sure as heck are not seeing that attitude from the pro peloton.

Armstrong tried to con everyone with his Dr Cailtin routine to prove he was negative in his comeback. While he never had any intention, none of the teams now have any intention of it either.

Take a team like Sky with their huge budget, if anone could do a 'Dr Caitlin' it would be them, but are they? Nope, so until teams start down the road of doing their utmost to convince me they're clean, why should I believe they are?

edit: can posters stop expecting the clinic to solve the doping problem in the sport. It is a subforum of a larger cycling forum, not the place where unicorns get made. Go to the Sky or Garmin websites for that!

 

[noddy69]

I agree that watching a grueling and tactical race is entertaining, but if the gruel is dope, what's the point? Say some guy pulls off a classic sprint, but he's doped, where is the excitement in that? Wow, great maneuver, but so what! Say a guy attacks at turn 20 on AdH and leaves the yellow jersey in his dust. Pretty impressive but so what!

The temporary high in watching such tactics is instantly lost by the knowledge the guy cheated. How is that entertaining?

And how is watching the TDF in anticipation of the inevitable dope scandal fun? Don't get me wrong but if that is why you watch cycling, you might reconsider what you consider entertainment.

In a weird sort of way if there were loads of doping scandals during the year I would be quite happy. At least we would know that the dopers were being seriously hounded out....right now we have absolutely no change to cycling whatsoever. That makes it rotton to the core and stuck in PR mode again instead of actually doing anything.