Tour 2012: Route Rumours / Our wishes

[The Hitch]

amazing > Sicard


That's greater than, not an arrow.

Rather strange way to make the point that Sicard is not amazing, which no one said he was.

Not just that. Pinot is now as old as Sicard was when he won the Tour de l'Avenir. Imagine Pinot taking part in that race right now, he'd play with the opposition.

You suggesting that he would beat Wilco Keldermann

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Rather strange way to make the point that Sicard is not amazing, which no one said he was.



You suggesting that he would beat Wilco Keldermann

His name was raised in response to the need for an amazing French Basque climber. Sadly he fits the 2 less relevant criteria which were set.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

We might need an amazing French - or even better French Basque - pure climber for that to happen.

Enter Sicard.

*cough *

 

[Swede1]

Why does everybody think wiggins is stronger than Menchov. If you watched the Vuelta it was pretty obvious by the 2nd/3rd week that Menchov was stronger than wiggins. and in the Tour the hard stages usually come later than in the Vuelta.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Why does everybody think wiggins is stronger than Menchov. If you watched the Vuelta it was pretty obvious by the 2nd/3rd week that Menchov was stronger than wiggins. and in the Tour the hard stages usually come later than in the Vuelta.

Probably because Menchov prepared for the Vuelta whilst Wiggins didn't, and in the rest of the season Wiggins podiumed PN and won the Dauphine, whilst Menchov's had a relatively low key year.


Also, this forum is English speaking.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Rather strange way to make the point that Sicard is not amazing, which no one said he was.



You suggesting that he would beat Wilco Keldermann

wilco never rode it, so obviously youngest took that into consideration

Pinot is a massive talent, best climber of his age.
Much bigger prospect then sicard.
And yes, he would destroy kelderman I think.

Kelderman is still a bit unknown in the mountains, but has had an impressive career in the espoirs. What kinda rider he becomes, and how good he can become will be fascinating to follow.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Probably because Menchov prepared for the Vuelta whilst Wiggins didn't, and in the rest of the season Wiggins podiumed PN and won the Dauphine, whilst Menchov's had a relatively low key year.


Also, this forum is English speaking.

No way is wiggo better then menchov. Menchov rode a very hard giro, which multiple riders failed to get past even by the vuelta... scarponi, nibbles etc.

But of course, who knows if menchov will be there. And he might decline some more.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Probably because Menchov prepared for the Vuelta whilst Wiggins didn't, and in the rest of the season Wiggins podiumed PN and won the Dauphine, whilst Menchov's had a relatively low key year.


Also, this forum is English speaking.

The problem is that Menchov has been there and done that, whereas Wiggins, until the Vuelta we were still of the opinion that he MIGHT have been a flash in the pan as a GT contender, as even with his Dauphiné win, it was based on holding on on the climbs after the ITT. The Vuelta showed that he was not a peripheral contender, he was a genuine bona fide potential GT winner. There can be no doubts about Menchov - he's already won 3 and finished on the podium of another. And the chances are, if he hadn't lost time unnecessarily in week 1, he'd have won that Vuelta too - he was clearly one of the strongest if not THE strongest in week 3. We can also say that Menchov has already won the Giro and Vuelta; he wants the Tour, and his motivation may have suffered this year as a result of the non-invite despite his podium in 2010.

All things being equal I'd still trust Menchov over Wiggins in a head-to-head. However, cycling isn't head to head, it's in a péloton. And Wiggins (and his team) are much better at riding within the péloton and not losing unnecessary time, and much better at placing him in the best position to be effective, and much better at controlling the race, all of which is to Wiggins' advantage.

 

[theyoungest]

You suggesting that he would beat Wilco Keldermann

Of course he would, easily. Kelderman is more of a time trialist who can hold his own on climbs.

 

[apmfbs]

If the stage of Foix is going to waste two climbs ( pailheres and chioula so far from the finish) I prefer to save climbs to make luchon and peyragoudes stages harder.

A good point would be to climb Grand Colombier and Biche from their steepest sides.
A good thing for the tour is the amount of ITT kilometers

 

[Descender]

I have a sneaky feeling the Foix stage won't include Pailheres after all.

 

[apmfbs]

I don´t know what about foix, perhaps we will have port-peguere at the end, but for me the key is to make the stage of luchon harder ( for example soulor-tourmalet-ancizan-azet-peyresourd )and the bales-peyresourd-peyragoudes trio in the last mountain stage.
I don´t like the ridiculous amount of kilometers ( 140 and 144 ) of the two most important mountain stages of the next tour ( with luchon)

 

[guncha]

I have a sneaky feeling the Foix stage won't include Pailheres after all.

TDF 12 route would have been failure even with Pailheres + 1st or 2nd cat climb 30km before the finish in Foix. Stages to Annonay and Bellegarde looks like a complete waste: something like Andorra la Vella - Saint Girons and Saint Gaudens - Tarbes in TDF 2009.

I can't remember that in last 15 years Tour would have had just 3 high mountain stages for GC and none of these stages had H.C. climb within last 50km. Medium mountains are nice but high mountains usually decide the Tour.

I am still as angry as in 10.10 when I read leaked TDF's route

 

[airstream]

I can't remember that in last 15 years Tour would have had just 3 high mountain stages for GC and none of these stages had H.C. climb within last 50km. Medium mountains are nice but high mountains usually decide the Tour.

Take it easy. They will give to Peyragoudes a Hors categorie in this special case. I wont be surprised if they will. Being MTF of comical "Queen" Pyrenean stage, the Arcalis got it. Given the Peyragoudes stage is much harder (or not?! ), ASO will do the same.

 

[apmfbs]

TDF 12 route would have been failure even with Pailheres + 1st or 2nd cat climb 30km before the finish in Foix. Stages to Annonay and Bellegarde looks like a complete waste: something like Andorra la Vella - Saint Girons and Saint Gaudens - Tarbes in TDF 2009.

I can't remember that in last 15 years Tour would have had just 3 high mountain stages for GC and none of these stages had H.C. climb within last 50km. Medium mountains are nice but high mountains usually decide the Tour.

I am still as angry as in 10.10 when I read leaked TDF's route

Even though I agree with you in the abscense of mountain stages I think we will have glandon-croix de fer in the way to toussuire ( if they don´t use mollard)and bales ( in the way to peyragoudes) within last 50 km, so at least 2 HC climbs......................not enough for the tour..........

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Even though I agree with you in the abscense of mountain stages I think we will have glandon-croix de fer in the way to toussuire ( if they don´t use mollard)and bales ( in the way to peyragoudes) within last 50 km, so at least 2 HC climbs......................not enough for the tour..........

not in last 50 kms but overall

- Madeleine
- Croix De Fer
- Aubisque
- Tourmalet
- Bales
- maybe some wasted HC climbs in the stage to Annonay?

Is Grand Colombier 1st or HC?

 

[Ferminal]

not in last 50 kms but overall

- Madeleine
- Croix De Fer
- Aubisque
- Tourmalet
- Bales
- maybe some wasted HC climbs in the stage to Annonay?

Is Grand Colombier 1st or HC?

Rather weak compared to this year:

Tourmalet
Luz Ardiden (MTF)
Plateau de Beille (MTF)
Agnello
Izoard
Lautaret-Galibier (MTF)
Telegraphe-Galibier
Alpe d'Huez (MTF)

That's across 4 stages. Three of the four had multiple HCs too.

Edit: Forgot the Aubisque stage, which is easy to do...

 

[guncha]

Take it easy. They will give to Peyragoudes a Hors categorie in this special case. I wont be surprised if they will. Being MTF of comical "Queen" Pyrenean stage, the Arcalis got it. Given the Peyragoudes stage is much harder (or not?! ), ASO will do the same.

OK, false H.C. is always solution. They could to the same with MTF in Vosges - it could be classified as 1st cat. while in the reality it should be 2nd cat.

Even though I agree with you in the abscense of mountain stages I think we will have glandon-croix de fer in the way to toussuire ( if they don´t use mollard)and bales ( in the way to peyragoudes) within last 50 km, so at least 2 HC climbs......................not enough for the tour..........

In 2006 glandon-croix de fer was located 54km before the finish in Toussuire.
Forgot about Bales but it possibly is questionable H.C. in comparison to glandon-croix de fer 22km@7% vs 19.3km@6.2% (steepest part is 13.5km@7.5%).

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Rather weak compared to this year:

Tourmalet
Luz Ardiden (MTF)
Plateau de Beille (MTF)
Agnello
Izoard
Lautaret-Galibier (MTF)
Telegraphe-Galibier
Alpe d'Huez (MTF)

That's across 4 stages. Three of the four had multiple HCs too.

Edit: Forgot the Aubisque stage, which is easy to do...

Yes, far too weak. And Madeleine - Glandon is the best case scenario. If they opt for Iseran instead, then it will be a complete joke of a mountain stage.

With the 1st category Col d'Azet the Pyrenees queen stage would be almost acceptable to me. Almost. But Aubisque - Tourmalet - Aspin - Peyresourde is not hard enough as recent history shows. Too much false flat as well.

 

[airstream]

OK, false H.C. is always solution. They could to the same with MTF in Vosges - it could be classified as 1st cat. while in the reality it should be 2nd cat.

Is Col du Tourmalet far away from Luchon? What climb can be the penultimate before Col de Peyresourde? By all appearances it will be the only chance to go without waiting for the final climb. We need the Col du Romme-Colombier remake so much.

 

[Ferminal]

Yes, far too weak. And Madeleine - Glandon is the best case scenario. If they opt for Iseran instead, then it will be a complete joke of a mountain stage.

With the 1st category Col d'Azet the Pyrenees queen stage would be almost acceptable to me. Almost. But Aubisque - Tourmalet - Aspin - Peyresourde is not hard enough as recent history shows. Too much false flat as well.

I think it has to be Madeleine-Glandon, it fits the distance exactly. Iseran would make it completely lame, there would be 100km of descending/flat on the way to La Toussuire.

Is Col du Tourmalet far away from Luchon? What climb can be the penultimate before Col de Peyresourde? By all appearances it will be the only chance to go without waiting for the final climb. We need the Col du Romme-Colombier remake so much.

Ancizan or Aspin probably. They may do Azet (which would be hard enough) after these before Peyresourde but it seems doubtful.

 

[Ferminal]

Is Col du Tourmalet far away from Luchon? What climb can be the penultimate before Col de Peyresourde? By all appearances it will be the only chance to go without waiting for the final climb. We need the Col du Romme-Colombier remake so much.

Ancizan or Aspin probably. They may do Azet (which would be hard enough) after these before Peyresourde but it seems doubtful.

 

[guncha]

Is Col du Tourmalet far away from Luchon? What climb can be the penultimate before Col de Peyresourde? By all appearances it will be the only chance to go without waiting for the final climb. We need the Col du Romme-Colombier remake so much.

Pau - Luchon was done in 1997 for the last time. Stage was 197km long and in a leaked route Pau - Luchon stage is 197km as well. Tourmalet was 77km from the finish in 1997. See the profile here:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/tourpics/10.gif

Final two climbs is much easier on paper than Romme and Colombier: Aspin is 13km@5%, Peyresourde is 9,7km@6,8%. Decent and false flat section between those two climbs is also longer.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

I think it has to be Madeleine-Glandon, it fits the distance exactly. Iseran would make it completely lame, there would be 100km of descending/flat on the way to La Toussuire.

Good to know. At least there's one decent mountain stage with 3 climbs back to back. Even though the last one is a joke of a climb. Still, better than nothing!

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Pau - Luchon was done in 1997 for the last time. Stage was 197km long and in a leaked route Pau - Luchon stage is 197km as well. Tourmalet was 77km from the finish in 1997. See the profile here:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/tourpics/10.gif

Final two climbs is much easier on paper than Romme and Colombier: Aspin is 13km@5%, Peyresourde is 9,7km@6,8%. Decent and false flat section between those two climbs is also longer.

Okay, that settles it. Horrible, horrible, horrible.

Any idea what climbs will feature in the last Pyrenees stage? Just Bales and Peyresourde-Peyragudes?