Tour 2014 Route Rumours

[McLovin]

Not according to post #142

Post 142 it's also a rumor. Anyway, would be nice to add Azet before Adet.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

With Hautacam and Adet? Two multi mountains stages that finish on Hautacam and Adet? LS, get your feet on the ground and understand that those goat roads in Basque Country will never be in the Tour. And I see you know the french Pyrenees. Come with alternative routes and connect the valleys with the cities WHO WANT AND CAN PAY ASO without Aubisque, Marie Blanque, Tourmalet, Horquette/Aspin, Peyresourde, Portillon, Mente etc. In the Pyrenees the finishes will be different. Roads to the finish, not so much. After Tourmalet or Aubisque, par example, you can finish on Hautacam, Luz Ardiden or Cauterets.
But it's always after Tourmalet or Aubisque.
Regarding the route, nice one with PdBF, Geradmer (short but violent) Chamorousse, Risoul, Hautacam and Adet. If this is true.

There is a world between the obsessive's fantasies of Errozate, Bagargui, Arnostegi etc. and the "every year the same climbs" crap served up by the ASO. It's like they realised for the first time since Voltaire was alive that they could do a Tour without the Tourmalet this year, so to make up for it we have to have it twice to make up. Tourmalet can do one. If I never see it again it'll be too soon. Although to be honest, I may never see it again.

If Luchon is paying, still no Superbagnères? They couldn't do Peyragudes-Balestas instead of just Peyresourde (linking the Peyragudes station more directly to the Peyresourde with some extra climbing, then descending the "additional climb" bit from the 2012 Tour & 2013 Vuelta - this was done in the 2013 Route du Sud)? Spandelles instead of Aubisque? Places like Ax-les-Thermes pay, they could do a lot more than just Bonascre every time. Lots of good and underused climbs over there. No Pyrénées-Orientales? Like, ever?

I might even be more keen to see ARCALIS than another double Tourmalet. Chronic.

 

[Netserk]

It would be really cool if instead of Adet they went up to Portet

 

[McLovin]

@LS
You ask for Superbagneres, but then, what's wrong with Hautacam (used only 4 times before) and Adet (after a 9 years hiatus)? And both are harder than Superbagneres.

 

[Netserk]

@LS
You ask for Superbagneres, but then, what's wrong with Hautacam (used only 4 times before) and Adet (after a 9 years hiatus)? And both are harder than Superbagneres.

I don't think it's the finishing climbs that are the problem, but mainly Tourmalet (x2).

 

[McLovin]

I don't think it's the finishing climbs that are the problem, but mainly Tourmalet (x2).

But Tourmalet it's a new climb. They just put the tarmac a few weeks ago. At least now they have an excuse.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/538992/floods-threaten-tour-s-pyrenean-stages.html

 

[Libertine Seguros]

@LS
You ask for Superbagneres, but then, what's wrong with Hautacam (used only 4 times before) and Adet (after a 9 years hiatus)? And both are harder than Superbagneres.

Hard final climbs aren't the be all and end all, though. Some of the best stages come from a monolithic climb or combination of climbs, followed by a smaller or lesser one. Don't let my generally being perceived as a climbing obsessive fool you into thinking I just want super hard MTFs left right and centre. Pailhères into Bonascre is one of the Tour's only real obvious examples of where this has truly been able to be applied in the Tour in the same way as the Giro's time-honoured Mortirolo-Aprica combo, or the awesome Esischie-Sampeyre stage in 2003 finishing at Pontechianale rather than continuing all the way up to Agnello. Bormio 2000 from Gavia in 2004 was great in theory but the stage was too short and too easy otherwise. Needed to start a bit further away and add Mendola or Palade before Tonale imo. Going to Pierre-Saint-Martin via Issarbe could work on this front (Pierre-Saint-Martin has been pushing for a Tour finish) to some extent.

A finishing sector like the Route du Sud stage in 2012 that Nairo Quintana absolutely demolished by several minutes would be pretty good:

Sure, there's the Tourmalet there, and I'd rather never see it again, but the key climbs are less common (well, Soulor is quite common but only as a stop-off en route to Aubisque usually). And you have a couple of major climbs followed by a small climb to the finish. And of course, Spandelles can be easily linked to Hautacam. Aubisque-Spandelles-Hautacam is a decent trio that allows a sop to tradition whilst not making it all about the overused hype climb.

 

[Netserk]

Speaking of combos, how about something like Azet - Peyragudes - Les Agudes.

 

[sensations]

Speaking of combos, how about something like Azet - Peyragudes - Les Agudes.

I don't dislike it and I actually prefer Azet-Peyresourde over Peyresourde-Azet but why bother with Les Agudes when you can do the full descent and you have the option of a Superbagneres at the bottom of the descent or - possibly even better - the 6km paintrain that's Artigue?

 

[sensations]

Also, I'm still absolutely dumbstruck that Goulier-Neige in Ariège has never even been rumoured as a stage finish in the Tour.

A lovely change-up from the typical Pyrenees-stages would be a really hilly inrun from Mirepoix or so and a last 80kms from Foix feat. Col De Port, Mur de Peguère, back descending via the Col de la Crouzette and the Port de Lers/Goulier-Neige one-two punch at the end.

Or if you're more of a traditionalist one could easily do Bagneres-du-Luchon eastwards via Mente, Portet-d'Aspet, Core, Latrape and Angel/Lers.

 

[asdfgh101]

Pau stages are amongst the most pointless every single time.

 

[Ferminal]

Good French 'sources' down here in the Central Pyrenees are starting to 'let slip' that there will be three stages which venture into the Hautes-Pyrenees and the neighbouring 'Departemente' of the Haute-Garonne.

Prudhomme has already been reported in Equipe as saying that the race will climb Tourmalet twice - a gesture intended to offer support and a tourism boost to those towns (particularly on the Western side) that were decimated in the flash floods which hit the region in June 2013.

So, it looks like we're getting:

22 July - Toulouse (or close by) to Bagneres-de-Luchon, via the Portet d'Aspet, Mente and Port de Bales. Get your bets on a Tommy Voeckler hat-trick to follow up his 2010 & 2012 wins on Bales-into-Luchon stages.

23 July - Luchon to Hautacam, via Peyresourde, Hourquette d'Ancizan (?), Tourmalet & Hautacam. Short (only 130km) but tough (4300m vertical).

24 July - Pau (cos it always has the money to afford to bid) to Pla d'Adet via Tourmalet, Aspin & then up to the ski station. Memories of George in 2005.

As always, it will depend on how the teams & riders choose to tackle them, but they look to have good chence of being decisive, coming so close before the Champs Elysees.

More detail (or, at least well-informed speculation) at http://www.pyractif.com/cycling-packages/road-tour-de-france.html

As a stage the Luchon-Hautacam is ok...

But then go back the other way the next day using Tourmalet again, and Pla d'Adet without Azet?

Even funnier is that all up you get three "stages" in the "Pyrenees" where every climb falls within a line of 70km, this is a mountain range which is 300km+ wide.

For me it all doesn't quite add up. A couple of MTFs in the Alps but now big mountain stage (sans Izoard). And in the Pyrenees can doing Tourmalet twice really make up for 150km stages with only one HC climb (although I'm sure Risoul and "Saint-Lary Soulan" will get an upgrade. I'll say that the Pla d'Adet stage is probably right as there is now a tendency for minute final MTFs (WHY!? WHAT HAPPENED TO THIS? http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?id=stages/tour0716 http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/?id=stages/tour0817 ). So my guess is either the Risoul stage has Galibier, or the middle Pyrenees stage will start around Tarbes and include say Marie Blanque/Aubisque.

Otherwise it's just a really poor mans Vuelta.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Also, I'm still absolutely dumbstruck that Goulier-Neige in Ariège has never even been rumoured as a stage finish in the Tour.

A lovely change-up from the typical Pyrenees-stages would be a really hilly inrun from Mirepoix or so and a last 80kms from Foix feat. Col De Port, Mur de Peguère, back descending via the Col de la Crouzette and the Port de Lers/Goulier-Neige one-two punch at the end.

Or if you're more of a traditionalist one could easily do Bagneres-du-Luchon eastwards via Mente, Portet-d'Aspet, Core, Latrape and Angel/Lers.

Col de Port, Mur de Peguère, Col d'Agnès, Guzet-Neige via Latrape?

Pyrenées-Orientales:

Ax-les-Thermes - Font-Romeu

Port de Pailhères (18,6km @ 6,9%, HC)
Col de Jau (13,4km @ 6,7%, cat.1)
[optional after Prades: Col de Fins (3,7km @ 6,0%, cat.3)]
Coll de la Llosa (24,8km @ 5,0%, cat.1/HC?)
Alt del Font-Romeu (Roc de la Calme)(16,1km @ 5,1%, cat.1)

You could always cut the final climb short at Font-Romeu village or, probably better, at Les Airelles (this makes the climb about 13,0km @ 5,5%). Max gradient is 14% so it's not the toughest climb out there and would have to be the final stage of a Pyrenean odyssey with the Alps still to come. Still, I'd expect a strong break because of Pailhères early on, and it's a finish in the Pyrenées-Orientales that could have the money to pay for it and the capability to host (as opposed to say, Coll de la Descarga-Mines de Batère or Col de Mantet, which are to remain but pipe dreams). There are also different ways to shorten the final climb and bring the Coll de la Llosa closer to the finish, with going through Font-Romeu town instead of descending to Estavar (Llosa 25km out, final climb about 12km @ 5%), through Bolquère and Superbolquère (Llosa 20km out, final climb about 9km @ 5%), or on the D618 (Llosa 17km out, final climb about 10km @ 4,5%). However each of these could be shortened and slightly steepened by a finish at Les Airelles as per before. Or the final climb could be omitted entirely by a descent finish at the Citadel in Mont-Louis/Montlluís - this would either be 8km after Llosa, or 12km after with a short puncheur finish (final 900m at 7%).

 

[Linkinito]

You could also go to Err-Puigmal instead of Font-Romeu (12 km @ 7.0% - 2210 m) but the ski resort was filed for bankruptcy recently. There's chances for the station to be rebought by a consortium but if it isn't, it might face the same fate as Val Pelouse.

We have to remember that the Tour de France is mostly a big money thing. Only the places that can bring the cash can be in the Tour. That's unfortunate... And considering the Pyrénées are really limited in terms of possibilities, well, it's no coincidence that the Tourmalet appeared 78 times in 100 Tours. And Aubisque 72 times. There's too few big passes in the Pyrénées. And they're always doing the "center" of these mountains, because:
- Lack of candidates and money in the east
- Lack of infrastructures in the west
- Money, friends of Prudhomme and huge number of hotels in the center...

 

[jamesmasters]

The race is a foregone conclusion for Froome whatever the course, he is at least equal to Quintana and Jrod on the climbs and will crush them into oblivion in the TTs. There is no course design which would result in anything other than a Froome win.

If I were the course designer, from a commercial perspective I would put in as much flat ITT as possible in the hope that Wiggins leaves Sky to try and take Froome on. The grudge match would attract a huge amount of interest, like a rematch of 2012.

 

[Netserk]

The race is a foregone conclusion for Froome whatever the course, he is at least equal to Quintana and Jrod on the climbs and will crush them into oblivion in the TTs. There is no course design which would result in anything other than a Froome win.

If I were the course designer, from a commercial perspective I would put in as much flat ITT as possible in the hope that Wiggins leaves Sky to try and take Froome on. The grudge match would attract a huge amount of interest, like a rematch of 2012.

I would like to see Froome against Nibali on the Cyclotouristes descent to Albertville.

 

[Netserk]

You could also go to Err-Puigmal instead of Font-Romeu (12 km @ 7.0% - 2210 m) but the ski resort was filed for bankruptcy recently. There's chances for the station to be rebought by a consortium but if it isn't, it might face the same fate as Val Pelouse.

We have to remember that the Tour de France is mostly a big money thing. Only the places that can bring the cash can be in the Tour. That's unfortunate... And considering the Pyrénées are really limited in terms of possibilities, well, it's no coincidence that the Tourmalet appeared 78 times in 100 Tours. And Aubisque 72 times. There's too few big passes in the Pyrénées. And they're always doing the "center" of these mountains, because:
- Lack of candidates and money in the east
- Lack of infrastructures in the west
- Money, friends of Prudhomme and huge number of hotels in the center...

How likely do you think a stage finish in either of these towns would be?:

Prades
Arreau
Argelès-Gazost
Oloron-Sainte-Marie
Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port
Luz-Saint-Savoir

I mean given that Loudenvielle can host a stage finish, surely the others can too?

 

[EnacheV]

I would like to see Froome against Nibali on the Cyclotouristes descent to Albertville.

The same Froome is a poor descender mantra. So Nibali took risks in a preparation race and won against Froome who didn't want to take the risks. Other than that nobody put a second on Froome on descends, more, some good descenders hit the deck trying to do that, also losing hilly TT's against Froome on descends.

 

[jamesmasters]

I would like to see Froome against Nibali on the Cyclotouristes descent to Albertville.

They have to put in something to make the race interesting for the spectators and not a Froome procession. Yes it's not fair on Froome that they should rig the race against him but commercially they need to make it an interesting spectacle, not just a one man race. Putting in lots of technical descents is another way of doing it, maybe Nibali could put some time into him.

 

[sensations]

Col de Port, Mur de Peguère, Col d'Agnès, Guzet-Neige via Latrape?

Or that as an alternative.

Guzet Neige and Goulier Neige are both criminally underused anyways. Guzet is probably a bit wider/easier applicable for a MTF though.

 

[pastronef]

How likely do you think a stage finish in either of these towns would be?:

Prades
Arreau
Argelès-Gazost
Oloron-Sainte-Marie
Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port
Luz-Saint-Savoir

I mean given that Loudenvielle can host a stage finish, surely the others can too?

Luz the holy knowledge

or Luz Sans Savoir: Luz without knowing

 

[Libertine Seguros]

How likely do you think a stage finish in either of these towns would be?:

Prades
Arreau
Argelès-Gazost
Oloron-Sainte-Marie
Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port
Luz-Saint-Savoir

I mean given that Loudenvielle can host a stage finish, surely the others can too?

Font-Romeu could afford it. Pierre-Saint-Martin has been angling for a stage for a while now, how's about a stage from the Côte Basque (somewhere like Bayonne, Biarritz, Anglet, Saint-Jean-de-Luz or Hendaye) to Pierre-Saint-Martin via Puerto Otxondo, Col d'Izpegi, Col de Bagargui and then PSM (or Issarbe, then descending and finishing climbing to PSM via Col de Labays)? Or alternatively they could come from the north from somewhere like Capbreton and Peyrehorade with only minor climbs before Bagargi?

The same Froome is a poor descender mantra. So Nibali took risks in a preparation race and won against Froome who didn't want to take the risks. Other than that nobody put a second on Froome on descends, more, some good descenders hit the deck trying to do that, also losing hilly TT's against Froome on descends.

It's not necessarily about Froome being a poor descender. It's about Nibali being one of the best, and this viably being the only place we can see where somebody other than Froome holds the cards. Which, bearing in mind how easily Froome has been winning anything he cares about this season, means that if we want racing to be less predictable, we're going to cling to that.

 

[Eshnar]

It's not necessarily about Froome being a poor descender. It's about Nibali being one of the best, and this viably being the only place we can see where somebody other than Froome holds the cards. Which, bearing in mind how easily Froome has been winning anything he cares about this season, means that if we want racing to be less predictable, we're going to cling to that.

agreed, except for the bolded.
He didn't win all the races he cared about
Unless you meant he only cared about the Tour

 

[Netserk]

The same Froome is a poor descender mantra. So Nibali took risks in a preparation race and won against Froome who didn't want to take the risks. Other than that nobody put a second on Froome on descends, more, some good descenders hit the deck trying to do that, also losing hilly TT's against Froome on descends.

Funny thing is that on the descent part of the second ITT in the Tour (the one Froome won) he was slower than all the other riders who ended up in the top-10 on GC except one (Talansky who ended 10th in GC).

He lost 30 seconds to Kreuziger in a 7 minutes descent.

 

[Red Rick]

Funny thing is that on the descent part of the second ITT in the Tour (the one Froome won) he was slower than all the other riders who ended up in the top-10 on GC except one (Talansky who ended 10th in GC).

He lost 30 seconds to Kreuziger in a 7 minutes descent.

You mean the 1st descend?