Tour de France 2020 | Stage 12 (Chauvigny - Sarran, 218 km)

[SKSemtex]

if alaphilipe had the luxury of saving the attack to the last cat 2 climb, I can't think of 5 riders that could, and if, then would want to keep up with him . Definitely Hirschi, maybe van Aert and maybe one or two guys a can't think of now but are there, and that would be it. There's 15 points for 6th place. Quite enough and actually it could mean, that sagan is back in green by the end of stage 14. And in the end, the competition for green me be decided by less then ten points.

My statment was reply to the statement that Bora was surprised hove hard the Sunweb riders attacked. The Sagan off limit attack in that part was guaranteed.
You are probably right but Bora would have this chance also without the killing themselves conttolling the race todoy. I am afraid tommorow there will be nobody to help Sagan to get all intermediate points.
But as I said, everybody is general after the fight.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

My statment was reply to the statement that Bora was surprised hove hard the Sunweb riders attacked. The Sagan off limit attack in that part was guaranteed.
You are probably right but Bora would have this chance also without the killing themselves conttolling the race todoy. I am afraid tommorow there will be nobody to bring help Sagan to get all intermediate points.
But as I said, everybody is general after the fight.

It would be very hard for Sagan to get significant intermediate points tomorrow anyway, I think. Presumably a large break will be up the road at that point and it seems unlikely that Sagan will be in it.

 

[Leinster]

It would be very hard for Sagan to get significant intermediate points tomorrow anyway, I think. Presumably a large break will be up the road at that point and it seems unlikely that Sagan will be in it.

I think past Sagan would definitely be in that break, and I'm pretty sure I do remember him being in the break on a tougher stage (in 2016?) to help Majka get polka dot. Certainly if I'm, say, a Cofidis or Movistar rider in that break looking for the stage win, I would be happy to have him along to help with the pacemaking on the first climbs and in the descents and valleys, safe in the knowledge that he will be distanced in the tougher climbs in the 2nd half of the stage. But I can see a) DQS making sure the break doesn't have him in it (even if Bennett gets dropped) and b) 2020 Sagan not having the bus fare on 25kms of 5+% climbing over 3 cols in the space of 60km.

 

[DenisMenchov]

It would be very hard for Sagan to get significant intermediate points tomorrow anyway, I think. Presumably a large break will be up the road at that point and it seems unlikely that Sagan will be in it.

How can DQS stop him from going in to the breakaway tomorrow? The only way they can do it is by dropping Bennett, which is basically what Bora wants in the first place, so either way Sagan is in the front group and Bennett is not.

I think Trentin will once again rob Sagan of the maximum points though.

 

[red_flanders]

Just got a chance to watch, incredibly gratifying to see this kid's hard work pay off! Chapeau!

 

[ppanther92]

Matthews' fans must be super mad that they didn't get to see everybody in the Sunweb team work all day to get to a theoretical mass sprint finish. It seemed obvious already before the race that they have made a conscious decision to favor going in breaks and attacks for this race.

Well, Matthews is probably not a worse sprinter than Bol and additionally not useless on stages like today and capable of winning from a break himself. What you make out of it, depends on the team but I still think it was a strange decision. Even if Sunweb does good.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

How can DQS stop him from going in to the breakaway tomorrow? The only way they can do it is by dropping Bennett, which is basically what Bora wants in the first place, so either way Sagan is in the front group and Bennett is not.

I think Trentin will once again rob Sagan of the maximum points though.

It depends where the break forms. I don’t think there’s any prospect whatsoever of Bennett being in the front group regardless of what happens, but that doesn’t matter to DQS really unless he’s dropped so early that he somehow doesn’t make the grupetto.

If the break forms early with Sagan, DQS can chase it down without cost. If it forms later they can chase but that of course is harder. Depending on who they put in it themselves they can force a selection on the Cols that leaves Sagan in a chasing group (certainly they can if Alaphilippe goes). Plus it’s a lot of effort for Sagan to expend one day before a day where he can win.

 

[DenisMenchov]

It depends where the break forms. I don’t think there’s any prospect whatsoever of Bennett being in the front group regardless of what happens, but that doesn’t matter to DQS really unless he’s dropped so early that he somehow doesn’t make the grupetto.

If the break forms early with Sagan, DQS can chase it down without cost. If it forms later they can chase but that of course is harder. Depending on who they put in it themselves they can force a selection on the Cols that leaves Sagan in a chasing group (certainly they can if Alaphilippe goes). Plus it’s a lot of effort for Sagan to expend one day before a day where he can win.

OFC, But I'm speaking about a scenario in which Sagan wants to take maximum possible points at the intermediate sprint.

Btw intermediate sprints in stages 17 and 18 are a joke. They could've just put them at km 2 as well...

 

[SKSemtex]

It depends where the break forms. I don’t think there’s any prospect whatsoever of Bennett being in the front group regardless of what happens, but that doesn’t matter to DQS really unless he’s dropped so early that he somehow doesn’t make the grupetto.

If the break forms early with Sagan, DQS can chase it down without cost. If it forms later they can chase but that of course is harder. Depending on who they put in it themselves they can force a selection on the Cols that leaves Sagan in a chasing group (certainly they can if Alaphilippe goes). Plus it’s a lot of effort for Sagan to expend one day before a day where he can win.

Thats are exactly the reasons why the rested strong team would be helpful to Sagan to get to itermediate sprint in the front group.

 

[Leinster]

How can DQS stop him from going in to the breakaway tomorrow? The only way they can do it is by dropping Bennett, which is basically what Bora wants in the first place, so either way Sagan is in the front group and Bennett is not.

I think Trentin will once again rob Sagan of the maximum points though.

2 things are certain tomorrow. A break is going to go, and Bennett is going to get dropped.

Quickstep can make it very hard for any break with Sagan in it to get a gap. Just have Jungels and Cavagna tow the field along at a pace to keep him within reach. Then the guys who want to be in the break will have to choose between dropping him, or having the GC group breathe down their necks all day.

 

[ciranda]

Well, Matthews is probably not a worse sprinter than Bol and additionally not useless on stages like today and capable of winning from a break himself. What you make out of it, depends on the team but I still think it was a strange decision. Even if Sunweb does good.

Yeah but last year they sacrificed Kelderman and Kragh to work for Matthews to keep the race together in stages as this one. It was a very strict hierarchy and I think this approach is better wrt results and for sure more likeable.

 

[Leinster]

Yeah but last year they sacrificed Kelderman and Kragh to work for Matthews to keep the race together in stages as this one. It was a very strict hierarchy and I think this approach is better wrt results and for sure more likeable.

It's a bit of Quickstep Wolfpack different-leader-every-day type plan, and it's great so far.

 

[Lequack]

24 Big Photos from Stage 12 (more to come) — corvos/aso/reuters
http://www.steephill.tv/2020/tour-de-france/photos/stage-12/

 

[Breezy1985]

24 Big Photos from Stage 12 (more to come) — corvos/aso/reuters
http://www.steephill.tv/2020/tour-de-france/photos/stage-12/

Good to see some Tom Hardy fans out and about

 

[Wvv]

Probably the same reaction as most of you guys here, but:
Genuinely happy for Hirschi and Sunweb. His efforts this Tour deserve a win, and the team rode awesome today.

However, when I see him race, I can't help but reminisce about Bjorg Lambrecht and where he would've been in his carreer. That 'what if' will always remain.

 

[Lequack]

'I thought it was bike trouble, but it was just legs' - Julian Alaphilippe

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

'I thought it was bike trouble, but it was just legs' - Julian Alaphilippe

full marks for honesty

 

[Red Rick]

full marks for honesty

Well he does fail the Jens Voigt test.

SHUT UP LEGS

 

[Broccolidwarf]

It's a bit of Quickstep Wolfpack different-leader-every-day type plan, and it's great so far.

I dunno.

From what we have heard from riders that have left Sunweb, they seem to have a very high degree of (strict) DS control in the way they are racing, whereas DQ appear to be more of an organic collective, that ride for whoever has legs and position.

I may be entirely wrong, but that is the impression I have gotten.

I think a stage like today was always about Hirschi for Sunweb, every move the team made was calculated and about him.

It's beautiful when it pays off, but it is hard to do often, as there are way more negative variables, than there is when team tactics are more organic and opportunistic.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

full marks for honesty

He's such a cool rider.

Brian Holm does a weekly cycling show in Denmark (with some other old danish riders), where he often tells stories from the peloton (both current and old).

He said about Alaphilippe a while back, that when you had him in the car (during transport), he would be constantly fidgeting, changing the radio station, drumming on the dash board, singing, and just generally be hyperactive - and then all of a sudden he'd go quiet and fall asleep for 20 minutes - only to wake up and start all over again with the hyperactive behavior

 

[CyclistAbi]

Congratulations to Marc Hirschi for winning stage 12. Third time's a charm! Overall we got to see some nice racing today, i expected somewhat less. I guess we owe it to Sagan and Bora–Hansgrohe. GC favorites had to do a bit more work, then they likely had planned, focus being on tomorrow.

P.S. Nice to see nobody got seriously injured today!

 

[Leinster]

I dunno.

From what we have heard from riders that have left Sunweb, they seem to have a very high degree of (strict) DS control in the way they are racing, whereas DQ appear to be more of an organic collective, that ride for whoever has legs and position.

I may be entirely wrong, but that is the impression I have gotten.

I think a stage like today was always about Hirschi for Sunweb, every move the team made was calculated and about him.

It's beautiful when it pays off, but it is hard to do often, as there are way more negative variables, than there is when team tactics are more organic and opportunistic.

Right, I guess what I'm saying is Sunweb can switch from day to day between the team being all in a leadout for Bol one day, to getting Roche or Benoot in the break the next, to an elaborate planned setup to launch Hirschi for a late attack today. But the principle being that any rider in the team can have his day as the leader (Hirschi was in Bol's leadout train on stage 10)

Quickstep, by contrast, can switch leaders in the course of a race (eg, Jungels escaped solo in Liege 2018, so suddenly he became the day's leader instead of Alaphilippe, or Gilbert/Terpstra's wins in Flanders). Quickstep typically have a stronger squad, so would have a bit more freedom of expression to mix things up on the fly.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Right, I guess what I'm saying is Sunweb can switch from day to day between the team being all in a leadout for Bol one day, to getting Roche or Benoot in the break the next, to an elaborate planned setup to launch Hirschi for a late attack today. But the principle being that any rider in the team can have his day as the leader (Hirschi was in Bol's leadout train on stage 10)

Quickstep, by contrast, can switch leaders in the course of a race (eg, Jungels escaped solo in Liege 2018, so suddenly he became the day's leader instead of Alaphilippe, or Gilbert/Terpstra's wins in Flanders). Quickstep typically have a stronger squad, so would have a bit more freedom of expression to mix things up on the fly.

I quite agree with you, and generally I think Sunweb has ridden a VERY good Tour so far, probably far better than most expected, pre-race.

I was only responding to the "wolfpack" thing, because I think the tactical philosophy is different at DQ (except on sprinters stages, those are set in stone).

I'm not saying one thing is better than another, clearly teams like Ineos and Jumbo subscribe to the same philosophy as Sunweb, and I can appreciate that type of firm DS control, because I am a control freak myself - but I am glad we also have teams like DQ.

 

[Leinster]

I quite agree with you, and generally I think Sunweb has ridden a VERY good Tour so far, probably far better than most expected, pre-race.

I was only responding to the "wolfpack" thing, because I think the tactical philosophy is different at DQ (except on sprinters stages, those are set in stone).

I'm not saying one thing is better than another, clearly teams like Ineos and Jumbo subscribe to the same philosophy as Sunweb, and I can appreciate that type of firm DS control, because I am a control freak myself - but I am glad we also have teams like DQ.

I wouldn't compare Sunweb to Ineos or Jumbo. I would say more like Garmin of old; target specific days in the road book, set out a specific plan to get a stage win for the particular rider who is best suited, get 100% buy-in from all riders in the team.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

I wouldn't compare Sunweb to Ineos or Jumbo. I would say more like Garmin of old; target specific days in the road book, set out a specific plan to get a stage win for the particular rider who is best suited, get 100% buy-in from all riders in the team.

I'm talking about the tactical approach, which is irrespective of whether it's a GC team or a stage hunting team