Tour de France 2020 | Stage 16 (La Tour-du-Pin - Villard-de-Lans, 164 km)

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Sep 15, 2020
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Sprinting in the end? And riding behind TJV for the other 190km. But we'll see tomorrow.

And don't get me started with Lemond and Armstrong's jiffy bags.

I agree. I like it when riders take risks. Pogacar "deserves" to win since he keeps putting himself out there.

I'm an old guy who grew up watching Lemond and Armstrong. And no matter what you think of Lance, he did not just sit second or 3rd wheel in his train and try an attack in the last 200m of a MTF!

Believe me, I was there.
 
The thing I'm now wondering, the more I think about it, is we keep talking about how super-strong Jumbo is, and how nobody can attack and how pointless trying to ride against them other than the last 700m is... but do we actually know precisely how strong they are? Nobody has tested them with attacks to find out how strong Dumoulin or Kuss really are, and so far they haven't really put down a tempo to absolutely shred everybody like Sky typically would, because we've still been riding to the last 500m with a dozen riders or more in the group, and on more than one occasion the GC battle has climbed the battlegrounds slower than the breakaway.

So the question is, why is that? After all, we've seen on stage 8 that actually Jumbo weren't all that strong, after a hard day in the saddle on stage 7 and with Kuss still recovering from a crash. Now they're apparently recovered enough to control everything, but they're still not able to go hard enough to drop a couple of helpers like Bilbao and Valverde - is that because the Jumbo helpers aren't that strong? Or is it because Roglič himself isn't as strong as he was earlier in the race, but the illusion of strength that having his men ride the tempo (especially on Grand-Colombier with Kuss not even used) produces means that everybody's just fallen into line? Is this a pure Giro 2012 situation, with an ageing Szmyd setting a false tempo for an undercooked Basso, and his reputation as an elite climbing helper causing everybody to overestimate how hard he was working? Because we can point to the elevated climbing times all we like, I don't buy that all 12 riders have the same true threshold to have all been going 100% and come in on the same time, so we can presume that at least a couple of them could have gone even faster. And if both Jumbo and Roglič truly are dominant enough that they can prevent anybody from gaining any time anywhere, then how are they only 40 seconds in front?

The good thing about tomorrow is there really isn't anywhere to hide. If Jumbo are as strong as we're told they are, there is no reason to hold back on showing it tomorrow. And if they aren't, and they bluff their way all the way to the line and take their chances in the TT, then you know what, they deserve to win because everybody else deserved to lose. The more I think about Grand-Colombier, the more I think, lord above, the very least we could have had was Bilbao or Valverde attacking. It's not like they were doing much for Landa and Mas in the last 2-3km anyway since everybody was riding in formation behind Dumoulin, and if nobody chases them then at least the team has a stage win out of the race, since they aren't going to get much else from the looks of things (except Unzué's inexplicable obsession with the Teams prize). But this race has been two and a half weeks of holding station and waiting for the race to develop. Now it's decision time for the riders: do you want this to be remembered like the 2011 Tour, or the 2012 Giro?
 
The thing I'm now wondering, the more I think about it, is we keep talking about how super-strong Jumbo is, and how nobody can attack and how pointless trying to ride against them other than the last 700m is... but do we actually know precisely how strong they are? Nobody has tested them with attacks to find out how strong Dumoulin or Kuss really are, and so far they haven't really put down a tempo to absolutely shred everybody like Sky typically would, because we've still been riding to the last 500m with a dozen riders or more in the group, and on more than one occasion the GC battle has climbed the battlegrounds slower than the breakaway.

So the question is, why is that? After all, we've seen on stage 8 that actually Jumbo weren't all that strong, after a hard day in the saddle on stage 7 and with Kuss still recovering from a crash. Now they're apparently recovered enough to control everything, but they're still not able to go hard enough to drop a couple of helpers like Bilbao and Valverde - is that because the Jumbo helpers aren't that strong? Or is it because Roglič himself isn't as strong as he was earlier in the race, but the illusion of strength that having his men ride the tempo (especially on Grand-Colombier with Kuss not even used) produces means that everybody's just fallen into line? Is this a pure Giro 2012 situation, with an ageing Szmyd setting a false tempo for an undercooked Basso, and his reputation as an elite climbing helper causing everybody to overestimate how hard he was working? Because we can point to the elevated climbing times all we like, I don't buy that all 12 riders have the same true threshold to have all been going 100% and come in on the same time, so we can presume that at least a couple of them could have gone even faster. And if both Jumbo and Roglič truly are dominant enough that they can prevent anybody from gaining any time anywhere, then how are they only 40 seconds in front?

The good thing about tomorrow is there really isn't anywhere to hide. If Jumbo are as strong as we're told they are, there is no reason to hold back on showing it tomorrow. And if they aren't, and they bluff their way all the way to the line and take their chances in the TT, then you know what, they deserve to win because everybody else deserved to lose. The more I think about Grand-Colombier, the more I think, lord above, the very least we could have had was Bilbao or Valverde attacking. It's not like they were doing much for Landa and Mas in the last 2-3km anyway since everybody was riding in formation behind Dumoulin, and if nobody chases them then at least the team has a stage win out of the race, since they aren't going to get much else from the looks of things (except Unzué's inexplicable obsession with the Teams prize). But this race has been two and a half weeks of holding station and waiting for the race to develop. Now it's decision time for the riders: do you want this to be remembered like the 2011 Tour, or the 2012 Giro?
I actually agree with all of this. As much as most of this forum seems to hate/dislike alot Froome, at least he would have had a go at attacking and putting the JV train under pressure. The other teams really need to go for it tomorrow, if not, they're just happy with being second best.
 
Reactions: VayaVayaVaya
2012 Giro, most disappointing GT ever... ( and one of the worst GTs I've ever seen, maybe even the worst )
I mean, they had this on stage 17, this on stage 19, and this on stage 20. OK, the pacing was completely wrong, and its should have been Mortirolo-Stelvio on stage 17, Pampeago on stage 19 and Cortina as stage 20, but I don't think it would have changed much with that bunch. I mean, Hesjedal won at the end because they did not eliminate him at Lago Laceno when he was having a terrible day, that says it all about that race.
 
If Remco was here, he would be so far ahead in GC he would be half way through tomorrows stage already.
I did not imagine to say this and I'm sure I will regret it, but: I miss Remco in this.

But I once again enjoyed Alaphilippe's stupidity stubbornness panache.

And of course Kämna's win today was very nice and strong. He does have the potential to be a people's darling (in Germany), so I hope he will evolve further.
 
Reactions: Sandisfan
The thing I'm now wondering, the more I think about it, is we keep talking about how super-strong Jumbo is, and how nobody can attack and how pointless trying to ride against them other than the last 700m is... but do we actually know precisely how strong they are? Nobody has tested them with attacks to find out how strong Dumoulin or Kuss really are, and so far they haven't really put down a tempo to absolutely shred everybody like Sky typically would, because we've still been riding to the last 500m with a dozen riders or more in the group, and on more than one occasion the GC battle has climbed the battlegrounds slower than the breakaway.

So the question is, why is that? After all, we've seen on stage 8 that actually Jumbo weren't all that strong, after a hard day in the saddle on stage 7 and with Kuss still recovering from a crash. Now they're apparently recovered enough to control everything, but they're still not able to go hard enough to drop a couple of helpers like Bilbao and Valverde - is that because the Jumbo helpers aren't that strong? Or is it because Roglič himself isn't as strong as he was earlier in the race, but the illusion of strength that having his men ride the tempo (especially on Grand-Colombier with Kuss not even used) produces means that everybody's just fallen into line? Is this a pure Giro 2012 situation, with an ageing Szmyd setting a false tempo for an undercooked Basso, and his reputation as an elite climbing helper causing everybody to overestimate how hard he was working? Because we can point to the elevated climbing times all we like, I don't buy that all 12 riders have the same true threshold to have all been going 100% and come in on the same time, so we can presume that at least a couple of them could have gone even faster. And if both Jumbo and Roglič truly are dominant enough that they can prevent anybody from gaining any time anywhere, then how are they only 40 seconds in front?

The good thing about tomorrow is there really isn't anywhere to hide. If Jumbo are as strong as we're told they are, there is no reason to hold back on showing it tomorrow. And if they aren't, and they bluff their way all the way to the line and take their chances in the TT, then you know what, they deserve to win because everybody else deserved to lose. The more I think about Grand-Colombier, the more I think, lord above, the very least we could have had was Bilbao or Valverde attacking. It's not like they were doing much for Landa and Mas in the last 2-3km anyway since everybody was riding in formation behind Dumoulin, and if nobody chases them then at least the team has a stage win out of the race, since they aren't going to get much else from the looks of things (except Unzué's inexplicable obsession with the Teams prize). But this race has been two and a half weeks of holding station and waiting for the race to develop. Now it's decision time for the riders: do you want this to be remembered like the 2011 Tour, or the 2012 Giro?
Waiting for Loze. The highs and the Loze. Normally, I'd expect Pog to attack for yellow and Mal and Landa to attack for the podium, a good stage and ppl would say a good tour, when it has been terrible.
After what I've seen, I'm not so sure. This could go down without a punch.
 
Reactions: Sandisfan
I consider myself more of a Mads Pedersen type. :coldsweat:
I bust out my Saeco jersey whenever I try a new climb.
The thing I'm now wondering, the more I think about it, is we keep talking about how super-strong Jumbo is, and how nobody can attack and how pointless trying to ride against them other than the last 700m is... but do we actually know precisely how strong they are? Nobody has tested them with attacks to find out how strong Dumoulin or Kuss really are, and so far they haven't really put down a tempo to absolutely shred everybody like Sky typically would, because we've still been riding to the last 500m with a dozen riders or more in the group, and on more than one occasion the GC battle has climbed the battlegrounds slower than the breakaway.

So the question is, why is that? After all, we've seen on stage 8 that actually Jumbo weren't all that strong, after a hard day in the saddle on stage 7 and with Kuss still recovering from a crash. Now they're apparently recovered enough to control everything, but they're still not able to go hard enough to drop a couple of helpers like Bilbao and Valverde - is that because the Jumbo helpers aren't that strong? Or is it because Roglič himself isn't as strong as he was earlier in the race, but the illusion of strength that having his men ride the tempo (especially on Grand-Colombier with Kuss not even used) produces means that everybody's just fallen into line? Is this a pure Giro 2012 situation, with an ageing Szmyd setting a false tempo for an undercooked Basso, and his reputation as an elite climbing helper causing everybody to overestimate how hard he was working? Because we can point to the elevated climbing times all we like, I don't buy that all 12 riders have the same true threshold to have all been going 100% and come in on the same time, so we can presume that at least a couple of them could have gone even faster. And if both Jumbo and Roglič truly are dominant enough that they can prevent anybody from gaining any time anywhere, then how are they only 40 seconds in front?

The good thing about tomorrow is there really isn't anywhere to hide. If Jumbo are as strong as we're told they are, there is no reason to hold back on showing it tomorrow. And if they aren't, and they bluff their way all the way to the line and take their chances in the TT, then you know what, they deserve to win because everybody else deserved to lose. The more I think about Grand-Colombier, the more I think, lord above, the very least we could have had was Bilbao or Valverde attacking. It's not like they were doing much for Landa and Mas in the last 2-3km anyway since everybody was riding in formation behind Dumoulin, and if nobody chases them then at least the team has a stage win out of the race, since they aren't going to get much else from the looks of things (except Unzué's inexplicable obsession with the Teams prize). But this race has been two and a half weeks of holding station and waiting for the race to develop. Now it's decision time for the riders: do you want this to be remembered like the 2011 Tour, or the 2012 Giro?
Jumbo have been strong enough to shut down anyone that has tried to attack. They don't need to go any quicker than that. If Landa and Lopez are saving themselves for the harder stages (stage), then it makes sense for Jumbo to do the same.

The thing is, the rider in the whole peloton best equipped, and best positioned in GC, to go on a long range raid and upset the apple cart in this race, is Dumoulin. If everyone really wants to see some major, order-shuffling, memorable GC action in the rest of this race, the best we can hope for is Roglic to DNS tomorrow for whatever reason, and Jumbo to have to chase the race for he next 2 days to get Tom within the 1.5-2 minutes he will be able to take back from just about everyone in the TT.
 
2012 Giro, most disappointing GT ever... ( and one of the worst GTs I've ever seen, maybe even the worst )
I mean, they had this on stage 17, this on stage 19, and this on stage 20. OK, the pacing was completely wrong, and its should have been Mortirolo-Stelvio on stage 17, Pampeago on stage 19 and Cortina as stage 20, but I don't think it would have changed much with that bunch. I mean, Hesjedal won at the end because they did not eliminate him at Lago Laceno when he was having a terrible day, that says it all about that race.
I wonder if it has to do with emphasis on big MTFs for queen stages.

Makes one wonder.
 
Every morning Rog steps in his limousine, all cozy, drinks, food, small chat with the driver. The motorcade will go as fast as he feels comfortable, we don't want him to spill his drink. They will deliver him close to the entrance where he'll pick his prize. He will have to walk a bit, move his legs and get some fresh air. The entourage will follow, under no circumstances are they allowed to enter the premises before Mr. Rog. Only one exception allowed, Mr. Rog's youngest brother, Mr. Pog.
 
Jan 18, 2020
168
77
430
The thing I'm now wondering, the more I think about it, is we keep talking about how super-strong Jumbo is, and how nobody can attack and how pointless trying to ride against them other than the last 700m is... but do we actually know precisely how strong they are? Nobody has tested them with attacks to find out how strong Dumoulin or Kuss really are, and so far they haven't really put down a tempo to absolutely shred everybody like Sky typically would, because we've still been riding to the last 500m with a dozen riders or more in the group, and on more than one occasion the GC battle has climbed the battlegrounds slower than the breakaway.

So the question is, why is that? After all, we've seen on stage 8 that actually Jumbo weren't all that strong, after a hard day in the saddle on stage 7 and with Kuss still recovering from a crash. Now they're apparently recovered enough to control everything, but they're still not able to go hard enough to drop a couple of helpers like Bilbao and Valverde - is that because the Jumbo helpers aren't that strong? Or is it because Roglič himself isn't as strong as he was earlier in the race, but the illusion of strength that having his men ride the tempo (especially on Grand-Colombier with Kuss not even used) produces means that everybody's just fallen into line? Is this a pure Giro 2012 situation, with an ageing Szmyd setting a false tempo for an undercooked Basso, and his reputation as an elite climbing helper causing everybody to overestimate how hard he was working? Because we can point to the elevated climbing times all we like, I don't buy that all 12 riders have the same true threshold to have all been going 100% and come in on the same time, so we can presume that at least a couple of them could have gone even faster. And if both Jumbo and Roglič truly are dominant enough that they can prevent anybody from gaining any time anywhere, then how are they only 40 seconds in front?

The good thing about tomorrow is there really isn't anywhere to hide. If Jumbo are as strong as we're told they are, there is no reason to hold back on showing it tomorrow. And if they aren't, and they bluff their way all the way to the line and take their chances in the TT, then you know what, they deserve to win because everybody else deserved to lose. The more I think about Grand-Colombier, the more I think, lord above, the very least we could have had was Bilbao or Valverde attacking. It's not like they were doing much for Landa and Mas in the last 2-3km anyway since everybody was riding in formation behind Dumoulin, and if nobody chases them then at least the team has a stage win out of the race, since they aren't going to get much else from the looks of things (except Unzué's inexplicable obsession with the Teams prize). But this race has been two and a half weeks of holding station and waiting for the race to develop. Now it's decision time for the riders: do you want this to be remembered like the 2011 Tour, or the 2012 Giro?
The only excuse for no action tomorrow is if Dumoulin and Kuss are actually stronger than every GC contender bar Pog
 
The only excuse for no action tomorrow is if Dumoulin and Kuss are actually stronger than every GC contender bar Pog
All indications so far are that at least one of them probably is.

I was a little encouraged to see Landa move to the front towards the end of today. If anyone has the domestiques to actually pressure JV, it's the guy who's had Wout Poels and Matej Mohoric just hiding in amongst the pack fodder for 16 stages. I mean, Poels basically did all of Froome's climbing for him to win 2 Tours, a Vuelta and a Giro. And his best stage placing so far at this race is 56th today; we saw him sandbag like that for the first week or so riding for Sky, if he has anything like that kind of legs at this Tour he should be ready to explode tomorrow. The question is if Landa does or not.
 
Reactions: Sandisfan
Jan 18, 2020
168
77
430
All indications so far are that at least one of them probably is.

I was a little encouraged to see Landa move to the front towards the end of today. If anyone has the domestiques to actually pressure JV, it's the guy who's had Wout Poels and Matej Mohoric just hiding in amongst the pack fodder for 16 stages. I mean, Poels basically did all of Froome's climbing for him to win 2 Tours, a Vuelta and a Giro. And his best stage placing so far at this race is 56th today; we saw him sandbag like that for the first week or so riding for Sky, if he has anything like that kind of legs at this Tour he should be ready to explode tomorrow. The question is if Landa does or not.
Bit harsh on Froome there bar the Vuelta but yeah expecting Landa and MAL to have a go tomorrow
 

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