Tour de France 2020 | Stage 20 ITT (Lure - La Planche des Belles Filles, 36.2km)

[gregrowlerson]

Let's get not ahead of ourselves, in 3 years there might a rider in his late twenties, who is still far away from his peak right now, and who will win against the younger guys. I mean where did Froom come from? Jan Ullrich got dominated by an older LA and so on...

True. Nothing stays the same. Wouldn't be betting against Pog winning the 2021 Tour right now, but of course it is far from certain. Not everyone has the same career trajectory.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Best performance in the Tour? Hmm.. I have watched most every big stage from 1996-now (some on Youtube, Im not that old) and can probably pick a few better performances. I think the context of the performance is what leads ppl to say that. But lets try to compare it with some other ones in terms of just pure domination from an athletic standpoint:

Ullrich 1997, Arcalis
Ullrich 1997, Saint Etienne ITT
Armstrong 2001, Alpe d Huez
Ullrich 2003, Cap Decouverte
Landis 2006, Morzine
Rasmussen 2007, Tignes
Contador 2009, Verbier
Schleck 2011, Galibier
Froome 2015, PSM
Pogacar 2020, La Planche ITT

Its up there for sure, but I think some of these performances might be better. But its hard. Unfortunately we didnt get to see some performances from 2014 in this category, could probably have created at least 2 monster performances.

Nice list. Maybe add Armstrong and (to a lesser extent) Nibali 2000 and 2014 Hautacam too?

 

[gregrowlerson]

In the meantime in a galaxy far far away:

The gorgeous of all time.

 

[gregrowlerson]

A solo breakaway for 50km and putting 2+ minutes into all other riders. That was an insane ride.

Red Rick doesn't really rate Evans.

 

[IndianCyclist]

I think it’s been touched on in a few places, but a very big factor I think is the power meters and data that we have now (or more importantly, that the teams have access to now) that can tell the DS that “hey, this kid is actually your strongest rider, by a long shot too,” where before a 22 year old who came into the peloton would have to “serve his apprenticeship” and “learn his racecraft” by fetching water bottles and eating wind for an aging team leader pushing for a top 10.

It would have to be a truly out-there generational talent like an Ullrich or Armstrong to break through in that system and get team leadership aged 21 (and additionally, be a German/US rider, with a German/US team, specifically looking for that talent).

Case in point, the ‘83 Tour. Fignon was due to be Hinault’s water boy, until Hinault withdrew. And Roche and Anderson had to give up their own chances working in a French team for a French leader who was injured, and never repeated his performance again.

Transport Pogacar‘s career back to those days, and instead of leadership roles at GTs he might have spent last year and this domming for Dan Martin, Aru and Formolo. But instead, somebody at UAE looked at his data, said “y’know, the kid has something,” and gave him his shot.

I donot agree. It is very easy to find out who is the strongest rider in any terrain. Just ask each rider to go up a climb/hill/cobbled road and tally their times and weights with a stop watch will tell u who is the strongest. Ask them to go 3x times in 3 days and you will have some semblance of recovery as well. But what will be unknown then and now is the behavior of the body over 20 grueling days as doing it in training is impractical. Conserving energy, eating well, rider positioning, reading the race, mental strength, knowing when to attack comes from experience which is why more experienced riders are always preferred. Case in point Gaudu is still slaving for Pinot. Latour had to move teams. Bernal did it for a season. Even Pogchar came to this TDF in a free role not out and out leadership role. Most younger riders are still water carriers for the experienced riders. Mohoric is another who came into worltour pretty early and could not perform till reaching 25 years. Progression is what still counts. Win small races, prove yourself, then get leadership role in bigger races irrespective of age or data. Also in the 80s riders used to race all year long, reducing the opportunity for younger rider to be leaders. Nowadays it is a very selective peak for a particular goal leading to more chances for other riders.
Power meters help to optimize performance but they are not the deciding factor.

 

[gregrowlerson]

With your profile pic and your obsession with Bala I sometimes I forget you are not him so anytime you mention the husband I picture Bala wrapped up on the couch with some big bear dude

Yeah, he'd probably prefer bears over pandas

 

[gregrowlerson]

I usually enjoy watching TT's, but this one I didn't enjoy. (No it's not because of Valverde's absolutely horrendous TT).

"The tenth place is no good" - Alejandro Valverde

 

[SafeBet]

Age?

Well that was never an explanation for Valverde, but it probably is now.

I guess he would top10 the Vuelta even at 60 years of age though.

 

[Leinster]

True. Nothing stays the same. Wouldn't be betting against Pog winning the 2021 Tour right now, but of course it is far from certain. Not everyone has the same career trajectory.

This time 12 months ago we were wondering how long the Sky/Bernal hegemony would last.

Pog was able to sit on the Jumbo wheels all Tour. Nobody will give him that freedom again. UAE will need to recruit well ahead of 2021.

 

[Leinster]

I donot agree. It is very easy to find out who is the strongest rider in any terrain. Just ask each rider to go up a climb/hill/cobbled road and tally their times and weights with a stop watch will tell u who is the strongest. Ask them to go 3x times in 3 days and you will have some semblance of recovery as well. But what will be unknown then and now is the behavior of the body over 20 grueling days as doing it in training is impractical. Conserving energy, eating well, rider positioning, reading the race, mental strength, knowing when to attack comes from experience which is why more experienced riders are always preferred. Case in point Gaudu is still slaving for Pinot. Latour had to move teams. Bernal did it for a season. Even Pogchar came to this TDF in a free role not out and out leadership role. Most younger riders are still water carriers for the experienced riders. Mohoric is another who came into worltour pretty early and could not perform till reaching 25 years. Progression is what still counts. Win small races, prove yourself, then get leadership role in bigger races irrespective of age or data. Also in the 80s riders used to race all year long, reducing the opportunity for younger rider to be leaders. Nowadays it is a very selective peak for a particular goal leading to more chances for other riders.
Power meters help to optimize performance but they are not the deciding factor.

I'm not saying the progression doesn't count, bu it counts for riders that are, well, ok talents, and can become better. Gaudu may well have a good career. Latour has moved teams and been... fine. But if these guys were turning out Pogacar's W/kg, they'd be leading their teams and pushing for big races.

My point is that a full-on GT winning talent, Like Bernal or Pogacar, in the past would have been put into the same bucket as a Gaudu or Latour or Sivakov and told to earn his promotion, the way Fignon and Roche were. Now, those talents that have something really extra are being identified that little bit easier, that little bit earlier.

 

[Oldermanish]

This time 12 months ago we were wondering how long the Sky/Bernal hegemony would last.

Pog was able to sit on the Jumbo wheels all Tour. Nobody will give him that freedom again. UAE will need to recruit well ahead of 2021.

Yes and if we can believe the effort we saw today you are 100% correct. UAE will definitely need to consider recruitment but in this C19 prep year you can't discount that some riders hit the moment that will escape them the rest of their career.
Tactically and physically Tadej did not really waste a watt and the last stage was the best of whatever he has done prior plus 20%. Not sure how he and UAE will manage the next 2 years but there will be no free rides.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I agree with Lance. At least, what I've seen in my lifetime. I haven't seen all the olden day Tours obviously.

Really an insane performance by Pogacar... again, he went as fast as Dumoulin on the flat, a guy easily 10kg more in weight and advantage there. Then he went faster than anyone else in the history on PDBF. It was just crazy.

Luckily for him it wasn't an uphill TT on Alpe or Ventoux. The French journalists would make his life difficult after seeing his time

 

[Inigo22ss]

Jumbo's strategy has been very poor in this tour de frsnce. They only used their huge superiority to get a short minute advantage before the TT. Pull and pull the group everyday and burn your riders, is that the only thing they know? There are other tactics possible in cycling. Tadej had no team. jumbo's directeur should be fired inmediatelly

 

[Pantani_lives]

Hey, there's an Italian in the GC top 10! Caruso deserves the title of Ninja of the Tour. I didn't even notice him until yesterday.

 

[Breezy1985]

Let's get not ahead of ourselves, in 3 years there might a rider in his late twenties, who is still far away from his peak right now, and who will win against the younger guys. I mean where did Froom come from? Jan Ullrich got dominated by an older LA and so on...

Well there were mitigating circumstances to explain some of this

 

[gavia88]

Nice list. Maybe add Armstrong and (to a lesser extent) Nibali 2000 and 2014 Hautacam too?

Pantani 98?

 

[Leinster]

Hey, there's an Italian in the GC top 10! Caruso deserves the title of Ninja of the Tour. I didn't even notice him until yesterday.

For all the talk of squads with "dual leaders" at the start of the Tour, the Landa/Caruso team were second only to Roglic/Dumoulin. And Bahrain's 3rd rider (Bilbao) was just behind Kuss, and ahead of Quintana.

 

[TomLPC]

His attacks were from so far out though lol

Yeah to be fair Yates’ Giro 2018 performance is a favourite of mine.

Young man with not much team suddenly realising he’s at the sharp end of a grand tour for the first time, completely inexperienced, “*** it I’ll just go from miles out on every stage”.

He might’ve capitulated badly but he still came out with 3 stages and lost pretty gloriously. I think my problem with the reverse (Roglic) isn’t that he didn’t attack from far out every stage, you basically need god form to be going there I.e Froome 2013, Contador 2009 incarnations, it’s more that he didn’t really attack at all, so we don’t really know how good he might’ve been at the start of the race. Feel sorry for him because he seems like a nice chap, and it’s easy in hindsight I suppose but hopefully this will encourage a bit more aggression next year.

 

[SarahtheDane]

Well that was never an explanation for Valverde, but it probably is now.

I guess he would top10 the Vuelta even at 60 years of age though.

let's see in 10 years time if you're right!

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah to be fair Yates’ Giro 2018 performance is a favourite of mine.

Young man with not much team suddenly realising he’s at the sharp end of a grand tour for the first time, completely inexperienced, “*** it I’ll just go from miles out on every stage”.

He might’ve capitulated badly but he still came out with 3 stages and lost pretty gloriously. I think my problem with the reverse (Roglic) isn’t that he didn’t attack from far out every stage, you basically need god form to be going there I.e Froome 2013, Contador 2009 incarnations, it’s more that he didn’t really attack at all, so we don’t really know how good he might’ve been at the start of the race. Feel sorry for him because he seems like a nice chap, and it’s easy in hindsight I suppose but hopefully this will encourage a bit more aggression next year.

The thing is Roglic didn't have that climbing form relative to the other riders.

Yates attacked with like 2-3km to go on Etna, then won Grand Sasso in an uphill sprint, won on a murito, and by the time he attacked on the way to Sappada, he had seen like 15 times over he could drop everyone still there (Froome who had beaten him on Zonc was already dropped like a stone).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The thing is Roglic didn't have that climbing form relative to the other riders.

Yates attacked with like 2-3km to go on Etna, then won Grand Sasso in an uphill sprint, won on a murito, and by the time he attacked on the way to Sappada, he had seen like 15 times over he could drop everyone still there (Froome who had beaten him on Zonc was already dropped like a stone).

Well, he won the stage 4 finish very convincingly, and on stage 8 he responded immediately and comfortably to every attack except the one he let go. On stage 9 he comfortably stayed with every move himself also, but didn't make any moves of his own. Stage 6 we'll never know because the only uphill finish I've ever seen produce less action was the parade stage in honour of Björg Lambrecht.

A funny thing about regret is, it's better to regret something you have done, than to regret something you haven't done.

And by the way - if you see your mom this weekend, would you be sure and tell her, SATAN SATAN SATAN...

 

[pink_jersey]

The thing is Roglic didn't have that climbing form relative to the other riders.

Yates attacked with like 2-3km to go on Etna, then won Grand Sasso in an uphill sprint, won on a murito, and by the time he attacked on the way to Sappada, he had seen like 15 times over he could drop everyone still there (Froome who had beaten him on Zonc was already dropped like a stone).

Yeah, I still don't get it. Bar Sappada where it was pretty clear he was the strongest he never attacked from a big distance. Yes, we put on a show, but besides Sappada it wasn't much different from some Purito GT rides

 

[hayneplane]

Couple of thoughts beyond the obvious of how incredibly special that performance was:
1. Until about 2km into the climb it looked like we could be in closest tour ever territory. I still wonder if the gap was 20 seconds or less whether there would then have been attempts on the Paris circuit to flip the GC.

2. I maybe have recollected this wrongly but it felt at the time that the front group did not push 100% after getting the gap in the crosswinds and could have pulled out 3 minutes to completely bury everyone left behind. Instead the eventual 1st and 3rd were in that group and stayed close enough to live to fight another day.

 

[TomLPC]

The thing is Roglic didn't have that climbing form relative to the other riders.

Yates attacked with like 2-3km to go on Etna, then won Grand Sasso in an uphill sprint, won on a murito, and by the time he attacked on the way to Sappada, he had seen like 15 times over he could drop everyone still there (Froome who had beaten him on Zonc was already dropped like a stone).

I’m not sure he didn’t have the climbing form you know, look at the way he closes down a few attacks near the top of the peyrousourde looking super easy, marking Pogacar on 13, dusting everyone 18. I remember thinking he actually looks pretty awesome to me.

Obviously it wouldn’t have been right to just launch it every stage as he has legitimate historical concerns about running out of gas at the end of GTs, but the one time he tried riding away here he managed a decent enough gap, albeit on the hardest mountain.

Yates attacking Dumoulin and the Sky train from about 20k out in pink with a 1m30 buffer and the hard mountains still to come was a pretty classic move IMO, total backfire like but it made me a fan after thinking he was a bit boring previously.

 

[Red Rick]

I’m not sure he didn’t have the climbing form you know, look at the way he closes down a few attacks near the top of the peyrousourde looking super easy, marking Pogacar on 13, dusting everyone 18. I remember thinking he actually looks pretty awesome to me.

Obviously it wouldn’t have been right to just launch it every stage as he has legitimate historical concerns about running out of gas at the end of GTs, but the one time he tried riding away here he managed a decent enough gap, albeit on the hardest mountain.

Roglic looks great until he gets dropped. That's why Carapaz won the Giro lol.

We are all Nibalis this glorious day.