Tour de France 2020 | Stage 6 (Le Teil - Mont Aigoual, 191 km)

[Lequack]

The big fish today was Bernal, it's amazing that Jumbo didn't realize that Ineos dictated a slow pace to protect their leader.

Maybe they were sportsmen like and only want to race Bernal when he's at 100%.

 

[Salvarani]

What attrition is going on when one team is deliberately slowing the pace so that every major contender has half their team there with them?

For the Nth time, it's not that nobody attacked. They DROPPED the tempo to make sure the break got a bigger gap. Ineos might have played a smart game in making sure there were no time bonuses in play for Roglič. Jumbo sat back and let them. That's not attrition, that's bluffing to the point of self-sabotage.

The only attrition this stage should produce is in the audience.

Every day is attrition, and it is being fought over 3 weeks. I just mentioned different aspects that affect riders during the race, not just things that you see on screen.

Why you are ignoring the things that might have gone on internally today? Even though by your measure, they were going "slow".

A GT, is a slow burn. How long have you followed cycling?

Right now it is a race going on between two teams, about who is controlling this race. Let them tire each other out. Because I think we seen cracks in both of these so far. I dont think neither will be strong enough to control it, as this race develops. I for one find this interesting. I hope others have noticed that too.

Also, I think you are being way too emotional and Im starting to find it annoying.

 

[oropa]

The best thing is remembering how people said before the Tour: "Will they race every day like it's the last, because Covid might end it every moment?"

it almost feels like a bad joke now... i know

 

[Broccolidwarf]

No... it is an elimination process and the race is won by endurance, recovery and consistency. Choosing maybe 2-3 moments to really put pressure on. Maybe with using your team to set a high pace and then attacking if you feeling you have the legs. Someone may be showing weakness and you take advantage of the opportunity given, or by people simply dropping from the group.

Most fall out of contention because they simply have nothing more to give. They just drop like a stone with a small shift of pace in the higher mountains. Because they over time/days have gone into red to stay with the group. The bill adds up to pay and they are out. Way easier way and less dramatic/costly way of separating yourself from your rivals. Until there is one or two left. That you hopefully just have that little bit of edge over, that you choose to put in that attack for come at the end of the race. Where it is quite naturally where it is decided.

1st week most is contempt with still being in contention going into the 2nd week, not to have burnt up too much of yourself or your team. Stayed out of crashes. In the 2nd week is where we see people will fade away from contention and who is going into the 3rd with a chance to win. Then lastly in the 3rd week it is when it is decided who wins and proves to be the strongest. Usually on the last stages. When everybody is at their limit.

It is hard to execute to win a GT. It is more about patience, and making the right decisions, than anything else. Some factors you can affect, some you cant.

It wouldnt been wise or the right decision to attack or put real pressure on today. Flat leading up to the end. Everyone had plenty of help around to pace them. It would have cost more, than the reward. If someone cracked big today, they were never gonna be a problem.

I can only surmise you are new to GT racing

 

[Tonton]

Cheeez.

...and Pinot won the stage! I remember that one !

Too big a drag to the finish as most here predicted, no GC action. Too bad, but a great winner nonetheless.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

How, pray tell, are they tiring each other out by holding figurative trackstands, taking cat.1 climbs at the kind of level that middling domestiques can do breathing through their nose?

You're asking me how long I've been following the sport, but you're coming across like somebody who believes the sport is meant to be built around three weeks of falling backwards as slowly as possible, and see no problem in a péloton which consists entirely of people with the mindset of Louis Meintjes.

You mention this:

Someone may be showing weakness and you take advantage of the opportunity given, or by people simply dropping from the group.

Mas, Higuita and others showed weakness today. But they didn't take advantage of the opportunity given, and instead slowed the pace further, meaning not only did they get back, but domestiques for other contenders did too. That's not winning a grand tour by attrition. That's the exact same reason Michele Scarponi and Ivan Basso lost the 2012 Giro to Ryder Hesjedal, by failing to take advantage of the opportunities given, because "it's only week 1" and "saving energy for tomorrow" until there was no tomorrow to save energy for anymore. Riding a slow enough pace that the breakaway gains time and 45 people come in within a few seconds of each other is not attrition. It's the very opposite thereof.

 

[bajbar]

Maybe all of them watched too much old clips of Contador and Rasmussen sprinting up the Peyresourde in 2007. Stage 8 is basically a copy of that stage so now they are afraid of how tough that stage will be

 

[BlueRoads]

Totally agree that a war of attrition is necessarily fought in multiple days. I haven't really seen any fight so far, so this is pretty much a long recovery ride so far. Even the breakaways (except for today) have been pretty low-key, to be generous.

In my mind, JV wasted a few opportunities this week. They could have eliminated guys that can later be a problem (I'm thinking about Pinot, Mas, even Bernal) in their commitment to keeping Tom in contention... they must be very sure that Roglic can deliver in the third week.

What I don't get is... how are other guys (Nairo, MAL, Yates, Mas, Pogacar...) supposed to win (or fight for the podium) the TdF if they don't try something in this type of days? Do JV and INEOS really look that scary? I actually thought Astana was going to try something for MAL today, with Lutsenko in the front, they could have tried to light it up on the Lusette (guys like Luisle, Omar, Tejada could have really made people hurt and the climb was hard enough for a pure climber like MAL to create a gap in the last 5-6km) I mean, that would have been about 40' - 50' max effort, but apparently that was too much to ask

I agree. Also Trek should have tried something. They won't win that time trial. They cannot expect to be simply stronger than Roglic if they have saved energy and Roglic has saved the same amount of energy. They have a chance to take advantage of a still hit Pinot, while he may have healed in a week.
So, okay, maybe they expect Pinot to get Covid, Jumbo to peak too early, Nairo and Landa to have really bad days, while they don't have any, Pogacar to not be able to finish a Tour yet, Dumoulin to get belly problems, Bernal to lose all his helpers due to crashes, Buchmann to get worse because of the lack of training days, MAL to have a mechanical after he got into a fight with a spectotor without a mask... and then they will get second. Well, I would not bet on that. I'd rather take my heart in my hand, win some fans and recover decently tomorrow if I fail.

 

[RedheadDane]

I think the riders probably know what they're doing.

 

[Escarabajo]

The best thing is remembering how people said before the Tour: "Will they race every day like it's the last, because Covid might end it every moment?"

Wait for Sunday stage. They will race like there is no tomorrow. 2 positive tests and the team will be out. Whoever is ahead might have the advantage.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think the riders probably know what they're doing.

Getting best use of their signed copy of "Cycling Tactics: A Comprehensive Guide" by Haimar Zubeldia?

 

[Red Rick]

I think the riders probably know what they're doing.

I used to think that a long time ago I'm getting less sure each year

 

[Brumdog66]

How, pray tell, are they tiring each other out by holding figurative trackstands, taking cat.1 climbs at the kind of level that middling domestiques can do breathing through their nose?

You're asking me how long I've been following the sport, but you're coming across like somebody who believes the sport is meant to be built around three weeks of falling backwards as slowly as possible, and see no problem in a péloton which consists entirely of people with the mindset of Louis Meintjes.

You mention this:

Mas, Higuita and others showed weakness today. But they didn't take advantage of the opportunity given, and instead slowed the pace further, meaning not only did they get back, but domestiques for other contenders did too. That's not winning a grand tour by attrition. That's the exact same reason Michele Scarponi and Ivan Basso lost the 2012 Giro to Ryder Hesjedal, by failing to take advantage of the opportunities given, because "it's only week 1" and "saving energy for tomorrow" until there was no tomorrow to save energy for anymore. Riding a slow enough pace that the breakaway gains time and 45 people come in within a few seconds of each other is not attrition. It's the very opposite thereof.

Do you honestly expect INEOS or jumbo to force the pace in an effort to drop Higuita and Mas?

 

[Blanco]

What I don't get is... how are other guys (Nairo, MAL, Yates, Mas, Pogacar...) supposed to win (or fight for the podium) the TdF if they don't try something in this type of days? Do JV and INEOS really look that scary?
[/QUOTE]
Yes they do. You got two by far the strongest teams with 5-6 guys on the climb, and you're expecting someone else will attack? Not gonna happen. This is a war of two empires, and nobody else will go to battle too soon. Those guys (Nairo, Pog, Superman, Yates, Pinot), will have only a few shots in this Tour and they need to choose them very wisely. They need to wait all-out battle, when not much helpers are there, ideally none, and then strike.
The way I see it Jumbo wasted good opportunity to get rid of bunch of guys. Gesink and Kuss would do the trick, and if somehow Bernal drops (which certainly wasn't impossible today), then get freaking Dumo on the front and drill it till the end. Whoever gets dropped on Lusette would ship minutes today. They're probably taking it easy because of Dumoulin, but that could be a mistake. We'll see...
In cycling it was always, if you're strong, you go. Jumbo is strong atm, but they didn't went. That might cost later.

 

[Blanco]

Do you honestly expect INEOS or jumbo to force the pace in an effort to drop Higuita and Mas?

You don't know who will drop until you try. Bernal is not in a great place atm either. Landa, Pinot, Buchmann.., there are many.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Do you honestly expect INEOS or jumbo to force the pace in an effort to drop Higuita and Mas?

If suggesting they try to cut the group of contenders from 40 to 20 with 3-4 kilometres of effort from one domestique is forcing the pace, then yes, yes I do. Because the more people you eliminate from contention now, the fewer people you need to worry about later.

 

[johnymax]

You are arguing that it should be a race of attrition.

I am arguing that you can't have any attrition if nobody tries to sort the wheat from the chaff. That was the problem with the 2012 Giro, as compared to the other examples I gave, the 2011 Tour (which was a literal race of attrition since half the field crashed out) and the 2019 Giro. Again, I'm not expecting them to go 100% all out and send Roglič in speculative solo moves 30km from the finish here like Fabio Aru. Tomorrow is a transitional stage, they can give some domestiques the day off. That's what domestiques can do, because they don't care about the GC. The more people are in contention, the more people you have to keep an eye out for in future stages, the more people you have to monitor and respond to in later stages. It costs nothing to get Robert Gesink to bury himself for 3-4km here, and get rid of some of the hangers-on in the group. Enric Mas crashed today, Sérgio Higuita had some issues and was dropped at one point, and Pinot's domestiques had some problems that could have left him isolated and have benefits in a few days' time given he's still recovering from an earlier crash, rather than letting him ride in with three domestiques in the group today unchallenged and untroubled. Distance them now, that's a couple of guys you don't need to worry about keeping an eye on later. It's not that they failed, it's that they didn't even try, and they justified not trying by saying that it's only worth trying on stages with steep MTFs. If it doesn't work, you can always give up. And if it doesn't, so what? You just then let Gesink come in with the rouleur helpers 20 minutes down tomorrow and he's fresh for stage 8. After all, it's only a 140km stage with three climbs. It's not Rifugio Gardeccia, you know. You mean to tell me that you think the Col de la Lusette is not a difficult enough climb for an in-form Primož Roglič to even think about dropping Mikaël Cherel and Ben Hermans, because he's too scared of the fricking Peyresourde in two days' time?!

I mostly agree with you but there are some other things to consider if we talk specifically about JV. Bennett is recovering from the crash, Kuss crashed yesterday, Gesink was suffering at the back of the group when there were still 50 riders left. Maybe it's them that in the end actually benefited from INEOS' slow pace.

I'm mostly disappointed because nobody, I mean not one rider, didn't even try to do something. Well apart from the only rider who could actually just follow wheels and wait for the final ITT, CancellAru.

 

[Red Rick]

One way I support this if it makes the Tour an official prep race for Il Giro

 

[Escarabajo]

Do you honestly expect INEOS or jumbo to force the pace in an effort to drop Higuita and Mas?

I remember the same exact words in the Giro 2012!

 

[Red Rick]

I mostly agree with you but there are some other things to consider if we talk specifically about JV. Bennett is recovering from the crash, Kuss crashed yesterday, Gesink was suffering at the back of the group when there were still 50 riders left. Maybe it's them that in the end actually benefited from INEOS' slow pace.

I'm mostly disappointed because nobody, I mean not one rider, didn't even try to do something. Well apart from the only rider who could actually just follow wheels and wait for the final ITT, CancellAru.

That's the most disappointing thing. You need one rider to put the pressure on and this *** doesn't happen, and if you don't get away, nobody forces you to keep going. They talk too much about the sheer number of domestiques when many of them will be dropped immediately the momenyt the W/kg go up to 6+ instead of 5.2.

Dumoulin was talking out of his ass about 'if you get 30 seconds on top of Lusette you're not staying away' when they probably could've done that climb about 4 minutes faster.

 

[Rollthedice]

One way I support this if it makes the Tour an official prep race for Il Giro

I think Sagan is doing it right now.

 

[DJ Sprtsch]

I almost miss the days where the Tour began with a full week of sprint stages. You knew what you got, and it could hardly disappoint.

 

[Red Rick]

I think Sagan is doing it right now.

Always rated him.

 

[RedheadDane]

Getting best use of their signed copy of "Cycling Tactics: A Comprehensive Guide" by Haimar Zubeldia?

Zubeldia probably knew what he was doing too. He got quite a few top-10s for an invisible man.

One way I support this if it makes the Tour an official prep race for Il Giro

I don't think you can just declare a race a prep race for another race.

---

But anyway; it's been 6 stages. We'll get attacks.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I mostly agree with you but there are some other things to consider if we talk specifically about JV. Bennett is recovering from the crash, Kuss crashed yesterday, Gesink was suffering at the back of the group when there were still 50 riders left. Maybe it's them that in the end actually benefited from INEOS' slow pace.

I'm mostly disappointed because nobody, I mean not one rider, didn't even try to do something. Well apart from the only rider who could actually just follow wheels and wait for the final ITT, CancellAru.

All the more reason to expend Gesink. If he's on the rivet, then you have nothing to lose by asking him to use the last remaining energy he has to try to put some other stragglers out the back and isolate some others. If he isn't able to ride up to the front and do that against the soft pace Castroviejo is tapping out, then it's pointless having him in the group because he can't provide any support or assistance to Dumoulin or Roglič and would be better served letting go and coming in in the bus to recover to do his job on a later day anyway.