Tour de France Tour de France 2021, Stage 18: Pau – Luz Ardiden, 129.7 km

[titan31]

A HC climb has to be double as hard as a cat 1 climb, so I think it's right to give double points. Maybe a more even distribution between placings, but route is the most important factor together with the double points for select climbs (this year for Ventoux, Portet and Luz-Ardiden only, which was always favouring a GC contender).

Tbf it's a bit ridiculous that you'd get the same amount of points for a sprint on a MTF finish like today than you would if you went solo on a stage with 4 1st cats with a descent finish. The double points throws it completely out imo.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You could even call them anaemic.

Although the mountain stages have lacked a true queen stage, fortunately, the non-mountain stages in this Tour have been the best designed in years, and that combined with finally having the best rider not in the best team has led, despite a fairly set GC win, to the best TDF spectacle in over a decade, all told.

However, reaching the climax of the mountain stages and realising you have the trifecta of Pau, Tourmalet and sub-130km in one go is pretty soul-crushing.

 

[hayneplane]

Although the mountain stages have lacked a true queen stage, fortunately, the non-mountain stages in this Tour have been the best designed in years, and that combined with finally having the best rider not in the best team has led, despite a fairly set GC win, to the best TDF spectacle in over a decade, all told.

However, reaching the climax of the mountain stages and realising you have the trifecta of Pau, Tourmalet and sub-130km in one go is pretty soul-crushing.

Don’t mind the 130km thing but would love to remove Pau from the route planners mapping apps.

 

[The Barb]

What would you change? I'd say if Pogacar takes it tomorrow he thoroughly deserves. Maybe he deserves it anyway.

Commonly the complaints about the polka dot jersey was that it was won by fairly random riders who are good at using breakaways in opportunistic ways but aren't genuinely great climbers.

You're right that people made this complaint but when you look at the list of winners it just isn't true. The vast majority of winners have been quality climbers (not "fairly random riders") who were not GC contenders, usually because they couldn't time trial (Virenque, Rasmussen etc) but who really did animate the race.

The exception, of course, was Anthony Charteau in 2010, whose win prompted the organisers to reshape the points system.

That was an overreaction in my view. It's much more interesting to have it fought out over multiple stages by guys like Poels, Quintana and Woods, rather than have a GC guy win it by winning two mountain top finishes.

 

[staubsauger]

Y'all forgot that Vingegaard theoretically could win polka dots as well. It's not likely, but not out of this world either if he attacks atop Tourmalet!

 

[staubsauger]

Finally some old school Lance Armstrong stage tomorrow

Funny how the stage became easier over the years. Always one mountain dissappears. Virenque 1994 had the Peyresourde. Armstrong 2003 still had Aspin. If it goes on like this we end-up with a mtt up towards Luz Ardiden or the Tourmalet in some years. Which ironically wouldn't be all that bad eventually.

 

[gavia88]

Funny how the stage became easier over the years. Always one mountain dissappears. Virenque 1994 had the Peyresourde. Armstrong 2003 still had Aspin. If it goes on like this we end-up with a mtt up towards Luz Ardiden or the Tourmalet in some years. Which ironically wouldn't be all that bad eventually.

In '88 they climbed Portet d'Aspin, Menté, Peyresourde, Aspin and Tourmalet before Luz-Ardiden

 

[sir fly]

In '88 the climb Portet d'Aspin, Menté, Peyresourde, Aspin en Tourmalet before Luz-Ardiden

That was the time the Iron Curtain was still up.
Cyclists were a section of infantry, constantly kept in readiness.
Nowadays bicycle touring's the leading trend in the market economy.

 

[houtdffan]

Funny how the stage became easier over the years. Always one mountain dissappears. Virenque 1994 had the Peyresourde. Armstrong 2003 still had Aspin. If it goes on like this we end-up with a mtt up towards Luz Ardiden or the Tourmalet in some years. Which ironically wouldn't be all that bad eventually.

Delgado in 1988 had to do the Portet d'Aspet, Mente, Peresyourde, Aspin, Tourmalet, then Luz Ardiden

 

[Leinster]

In '88 the climb Portet d'Aspin, Menté, Peyresourde, Aspin en Tourmalet before Luz-Ardiden

Going the other way, Chiapucci and Indurain in 91 went over Pourtalet, Aubisque, Tourmalet, Aspin and finish at Val Louron.

 

[movingtarget]

This stage will probably just solidify the top 3 on GC. Don't see Uran putting time into Carapaz. Poels will probably win the KOM, Cavendish will survive, and the break like yesterday might get caught again. Hopefully the route design next year does away with the mountain descent finishes which added nothing to the race this year even though they can work on hard intermediate stages but the long descent finishes just kill the GC battle for the most part. I am tipping that they only go for one TT next year and maybe bring back the TTT but have more MTFs. A good finish by O'Connor should increase his chances of a top 5.

 

[75Driver]

Looks like another stage where Ineos shows they're boss of the peloton. They've dictated the entire race including yesterday telling UAE to do their work launching Carapaz to the podium. No wonder they have their own TV show. Amazing how great that team is.

 

[Big Doopie]

Pogacar is by far the best climber so him winning it would definitely do it justice by name but the whole winning it by default makes it a bit pointless I feel.

then again if you put in a reasonable amount of TT, then a rider winning the yellow while also being the best climber would actually mean something.

right now every GC winner is regularly the best actual climber because the routes demand it.

if the routes were more balanced then pure climbers like Carapaz, Yates, Bernal would not be able to compete for the top of the podium and they would fight for the honor of the polka dot instead (exactly like Van Impe, Chiappucci and Virenque used to do).

thank god for some TT in this year's TDF so that Pog's full superiority is on display. and we will likely have 1 and 2 on the podium being also top five in TT at least.

none of the other riders in the top ten are even close to being all-rounders -- like this year's giro's podium.

 

[Leinster]

But he would be the literal "king of the mountains" if he wins tomorrow as the only one winning on a MTF and one besides WVA to win a mountain stage.

Maybe instead of double points are increased by 1.5 at the end, or keep the same points for everyone no matter the position of the climb. Or have double points still and then half way up a Cat 2, 1, and HC there is another KOM point worth half the amount of points and half the placements that are available for points.

I think there needs to be a bonus for bagging the climbs later in the stage rather than just filling up on points in the first 100km.

I’d revert back to having points on the smaller climbs that can be picked up by people not necessarily in the break. And yes, especially for higher cat climbs (1, CH) so that there’s 12-15 places worth sprinting for if you aren’t in the first group.

About the same time they reduced the KOM to 1pt on a cat4, was when they switched the points jersey to bigger points at one sprint point. I wish the polka dots was more like the green.

 

[Big Doopie]

It really comes down to the field of KOM contenders.
It's not like Armstrong and Contador weren't head and shoulders above the field in their winning years, yet didn't win the classification.

also true as far back as 1973 when Torres beat out Fuente by winning cat 3s and 4s. Fuente was much much better at mountain climbs.

and yet even he was trounced by Ocana that year in the high mountains and yet Ocana was not in the running for the climber's competition by the end.

it's all messed up by how they allocate points. however, the only way to fix it is to rebalance the routes with many more TT kms so that pure climbers can actually benefit from having their own category -- right now most pure climbers are considered GC material based purely on the imbalance of the routes.

balance the routes with more TT and you will have a better climbers competition separate from the GC.

because right now -- arguably -- the riders in the top 12 are actually the 12 best climbers in the race... ouch.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Quickstep to take it even easier in their TTT to go for tomorrow’s stage.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

right now most pure climbers are considered GC material based purely on the imbalance of the routes.

because right now -- arguably -- the riders in the top 12 are actually the 12 best climbers in the race... ouch.

Add 60km of TT and the same 12 guys would be in the top 12

The 2 best / most consistent climbers are also the 2 best time trialists.

Pogacar the best climber and best TTer of the GC guys
Vingegaard 2nd in both categories

And that's with Roglic crashing out.

on a more ITT-heavy route Uran (usually not a great TTer) could beat Carapaz for 3rd place , but that's about it.

Bernal is not a better climber than Pogacar, Vingegaard and Roglic IMO, except maybe at altitude. I don't think it would change much, although I get the usual argument that it could lead to more aggressive racing in the mountains. But with the current crop of GC specialists... I dunno.

 

[search]

The time limit will be only around ~35-40 minutes again, so Quickstep can't take it super easy. Hopefully they won't try to (or be able to) block the road again early on, though.

With the mountain classification, personally I don't really see many issues. Now, before the final stage, the best GC rider as well as the most active breakaway climbers are still in the hunt for it - isn't that basically a perfect balance?! The problem for Poels and so on are not the double points today, but that they scored nothing on the Ventoux stage, were double points where available for the breakaway.

Sure, the fact that even Gaudu is still a realistic contender to win it now, is maybe stretching it a bit too far, but the main reason that it's still so close is not the points system, but that too many espacee type of riders were interested in it, thereby stealing points from each other.

 

[Oliver]

What a stage in 88 These days, the riders would protest when they had to do something like that

 

[SHAD0W93]

The time limit will be only around ~35-40 minutes again, so Quickstep can't take it super easy. Hopefully they won't try to (or be able to) block the road again early on, though.

With the mountain classification, personally I don't really see many issues. Now, before the final stage, the best GC rider as well as the most active breakaway climbers are still in the hunt for it - isn't that basically a perfect balance?! The problem for Poels and so on are not the double points today, but that they scored nothing on the Ventoux stage, were double points where available for the breakaway.

Sure, the fact that even Gaudu is still a realistic contender to win it now, is maybe stretching it a bit too far, but the main reason that it's still so close is not the points system, but that too many espacee type of riders were interested in it, thereby stealing points from each other.

The only time they cut it close was stage 9. Otherwise around 6 mins from time limit.

 

[Bolder]

then again if you put in a reasonable amount of TT, then a rider winning the yellow while also being the best climber would actually mean something.

right now every GC winner is regularly the best actual climber because the routes demand it.

if the routes were more balanced then pure climbers like Carapaz, Yates, Bernal would not be able to compete for the top of the podium and they would fight for the honor of the polka dot instead (exactly like Van Impe, Chiappucci and Virenque used to do).

thank god for some TT in this year's TDF so that Pog's full superiority is on display. and we will likely have 1 and 2 on the podium being also top five in TT at least.

none of the other riders in the top ten are even close to being all-rounders -- like this year's giro's podium.

By all-rounders, do you mean "can also TT"? or able to compete in one-day races. I can name 3 or 4 in the top 10 with good TTs (Ving, Lutsenk, Uran, maybe Carapaz on his day).

I know this is an eternal debate but in a 3-week GT, "best climber" often turns out to mean "rider with the best ability to recover." Although in this Tour, Pog has "best climber," "best TT," "best recovery" and "best bottle washer" sewn up...

 

[search]

The only time they cut it close was stage 9. Otherwise around 6 mins from time limit.

yeah, I don't really expect any issues for them either. Yesterday they still got involved at the beginning, though, blocking guys like Thomas to not get into the breakaway, for them to have more leeway in the end. If they do that again today, I hope they'll get heavily penalized

 

[SHAD0W93]

yeah, I don't really expect any issues for them either. Yesterday they still got involved at the beginning, though, blocking guys like Thomas to not get into the breakaway, for them to have more leeway in the end. If they do that again today, I hope they'll get heavily penalized

I think that was more trying to patrol who actually goes in the break to try keep Matthews out of it. Like someone posted in the race thread, the slower the pace the shorter the time limit is.

 

[search]

I think that was more trying to patrol who actually goes in the break to try keep Matthews out of it. Like someone posted in the race thread, the slower the pace the shorter the time limit is.

haven't read anything from Deceuninck, but Thomas (in the post-race interview) said that it was to ensure a weak breakaway, so I guess he spoke to someone from the team.

Slower pace means (slightly) shorter time limit indeed, but given the head wind, that was always going to be the case anyway. And a breakaway winning by 10 minutes instead of Pogacar, would basically mean 10 minutes less to the best climber for Cav.

 

[ice&fire]

Looking at the map I see they're climbing Luz Ardiden from the South instead of the traditional road from the North. They skip 3km of flat roads but it looks a bit shorter and easier.