Tour de France Tour de France 2021, Stage 7: Vierzon – Le Creusot, 249.1 km

[BlueRoads]

Why the heck should Movi or any other team not race just because Carapaz is attacking? A contender attacking, a contender dropping and Pogi isolated is a Reason to Ride. Had they dropped Pogi many would be complimenting them instead of all this ridiculous hate.

They didn't ride much before, did they? Then when Carapaz attacked they were very consequent. They could also have used their team strength to do something earlier or to set up an attack of their own, but they did it the moment Carapaz was off. That was pretty much the same last year. It looks a bit like hazard or ratio, but I don't believe that anymore.

 

[spalco]

Loving that GC. Is this the Tour of Flanders?

Haha, best comment in this thread, should be pointed out again.

I think the team classification should be abolished. Only the Spanish team(s) care for it, and it so often has a negative impact on the race. Carapaz being chased by his former teammates was painful to watch. UAE couldn't have caught him.

Carapaz looks like Pog's main challenger now, but today was a wasted effort, just before the Alpine stages.

I mean, everyone takes out of the race what they can. Movi-hate is fun, but I think most people complaining did so under emotion here. It did look mean-spirited, and maybe it was, but it also made somewhat sense. Pogi wasn't willing/able to chase anymore. At least they let UAE power themselves out before they went to the front, and letting Carapaz go wouldn't help anybody but Ineos there.

I very much would like everyone to be more selfish and more radical in pursuing their goals in GTs, and by that I mean the maximum they can do and take more risks (tactically). Sure, getting #4 in the GC of the Tour is a beautiful achievement for 90% of the peloton, but winning is 100x nicer. I wish riders were more willing to gamble an invisible top10 for even a small percentage of getting more.

I think most fans value riders higher who maximise their potential more than riders who seem to go with the flow; let's say De Gendt vs Daniel Moreno or something.

 

[Carols]

They didn't ride much before, did they? Then when Carapaz attacked they were very consequent. They could also have used their team strength to do something earlier or to set up an attack of their own, but they did it the moment Carapaz was off. That was pretty much the same last year. It looks a bit like hazard or ratio, but I don't believe that anymore.

If it was another team that rode you'd be fine right? Because the situation called for someone to step up.

 

[BlueRoads]

If it was another team that rode you'd be fine right? Because the situation called for someone to step up.

No, because I wanted Carapaz to gain time.
But yeah, maybe I'm biased.

 

[fbjim]

Why isn't the BinckBank tour ever this interesting? Every time there's a fabulous "classics" stage I wonder that.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

Why the heck should Movi or any other team not race just because Carapaz is attacking? A contender attacking, a contender dropping and Pogi isolated is a Reason to Ride. Had they dropped Pogi many would be complimenting them instead of all this ridiculous hate.

I don't really care about GC. I'm more interested in the third season of The Least Expected Day. More of this please, Movistar.

 

[Anybody_but..]

And why would Pog chase his teammate Carapaz?

LOL # 1

 

[fbjim]

Movistar's actions made sense barely, I think. If Pogacar is feeling good enough to be like "ehh I can slip 30''-45'' to Carapaz with a stage 20 ITT" you can't exactly sit there and let it happen. With the UAE domestiques shelled it's not as if he has firepower that can be pressured into chasing either.

I remember this happening to everyone's frustrations in the Froome years - Froome letting an attack that was a bigger threat to p2/3 in GC go up the road and enticing others to chase-just part of GC tactics.

 

[fbjim]

What I don't get is the idea the idea that Movistar chasing is "racing for a podium" while letting Carapaz go is-what? That's not racing to win, that's racing for someone other than Pogacar to win while you finish behind both Pogacar and Carapaz.

 

[DaveJones2]

It amazes me that people still think the job of all the teams is to make the main favourite lose instead of riding their own race.

You let Carapaz gain time, you then need to count on both Carapaz and Pogacar having a bad day if you want to win the race, instead of Pogacar only.

Disagree with this entirely in the specific context of this stage.

Pogacar and his remaining team mate would have had to ride if no one else did.
They couldn't just let Carapaz ride into the distance. Pogacar is the best ITTer in the field and the overwhelming favourite for GC. There was very little / minuscule chance of Carapaz putting serious time into Pogacar once he committed to the chase himself. The consequences for the rest of the field therefore wouldn't have been Carapaz gaining significant time, but Pogacar and his sole team mate burning serious matches in committing to the chase.

Instead, Movistar ignored this obvious tactical opportunity to put the favourite of the race under pressure and did the work themselves. It makes zero tactical sense unless they are more interested in competing for minor placings rather than aiming to actually win the race.

The only way anyone, Movistar or Ineos included, is going to beat Pogacar for GC is either through misfortune for Pog or taking advantage of Pog having to chase down attacks himself due to his weaker team. It might not have made a difference to the race today, but over another 2 weeks it would. He might have let Carapaz take 20 seconds or so today but he can't do that every day.

Today is perfect evidence that this is unlikely to happen, because unambitious, poorly managed and tactically incompetent teams like Movistar would prefer to protect their chance at 4th/5th place.

Which I find embarrassing on their behalf. This is global elite sport, not a school sports day.

 

[fbjim]

It's the end of the stage, and a rolling finish at that. It's not as if they could force Pogacar to work and counterattack on a MTF for time. Do they really want to give up 45 seconds of GC on Carapaz in exchange for what, forcing Pogacar to work for 15 minutes on a rolling runin?

Movistar's GC threat is a climber. Their job is to get him in the best possible position entering the terrain he's good at.

 

[Lequack]

 

[Izzyeviel]

maybe Movistar were trying to put time into Quintana again?

 

[Anybody_but..]

And yes, after watching everytything, there is no doubt:
F..ck you Movistar. You've probably destroyed TdF'2021, and your boys are nowhere, as always.

 

[fbjim]

I think people are seriously overrating the potential benefits of having Maijka and maybe a few turns from Pogacar pace the peloton to the finish 30 seconds behind Carapaz.

 

[IndianCyclist]

There were 3 reasons for Movistar not to pace.

1. Tiring Carapaz & UAE team
2. Greater Hope that Ineos wont chase them when they attack
3. Conserving their own team for the Alps and additional tactical options

 

[memyselfandI]

maybe Movistar were trying to put time into Quintana again?

Possibly giving some hot Spanish love for Billy for him saying he's going to stay in Movistar by the time he was already made a deal with Ineos.

 

[fbjim]

There were 3 reasons for Movistar not to pace.

1. Tiring Carapaz & UAE team
2. Greater Hope that Ineos wont chase them when they attack
3. Conserving their own team for the Alps and additional tactical options

Sure. But they had one big reason to chase.

1. A GC rival was 45 seconds up the road and they had the firepower to bring him back and hadn't done much work all day.

 

[Escarabajo]

The current one

So there is no data but 2 points. You can't use the present one unless you know the future.

 

[Leinster]

It's the end of the stage, and a rolling finish at that. It's not as if they could force Pogacar to work and counterattack on a MTF for time. Do they really want to give up 45 seconds of GC on Carapaz in exchange for what, forcing Pogacar to work for 15 minutes on a rolling runin?

Movistar's GC threat is a climber. Their job is to get him in the best possible position entering the terrain he's good at.

If they were serious about Mas' GC chances, I think they could've gone about it differently. They could have tried to spring Mas (or even Lopez, who's onty 3ish minute behind Pogacar) off the front of the Pog group; what's the point of Erviti being in the break otherwise? If Carapaz and <insert Movistar name here> were up the road, together, then you'd be putting Pogacar in the position of having to chase, while at the same time not losing time to Ineos.

As it was, letting Carapaz dangle out there for a few kms, build up a lead for a bit, and THEN putting guys on the front to close him down, just looked a teeny bit spiteful. I can see both sides of this argument, but Movistar's "tactics" continue to confuse. The last time they even appeared to be playing it smart, was the 2019 Giro.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And yes, after watching everytything, there is no doubt:
F..ck you Movistar. You've probably destroyed TdF'2021, and your boys are nowhere, as always.

If one contender not gaining 40 seconds on one stage has ruined the race, then this bunch of riders are more conservative than even I thought.

At least those people losing their minds about Richie Porte being penalised for taking Simon Clarke's wheel ruining the Giro were going crazy about two minutes.

Sure. But they had one big reason to chase.

1. A GC rival was 45 seconds up the road and they had the firepower to bring him back and hadn't done much work all day.

And two expendable domestiques they could call back from the breakaway.

There's a good chance that this move was spiteful. There's also a good chance that it was tactical - and it is a reasonable, if a little negative, one at that. But let's not lose our minds over the neutralising of a relatively inconsequential move. Movistar had no other use for Erviti and García Cortina after they were dropped from the break, they had as much firepower as anybody that was going to move in that break (Ineos also had numbers but obviously with Carapaz up the road they aren't going to do anything), and Carapaz also lost a fair amount of time just in that last kilometre or two that suggest he was struggling to maintain it when the pace was upped anyway, so the gains could have been negligible, so we shouldn't just assume he would have maintained the maximum advantage he held all the way to the line.

It's like the infamous neutral service wheel change for Evans in 2009. This has been claimed for years as the reason he lost that Vuelta, yet he was stationary for less than his GC deficit OR his deficit in that stage, and he rode with the Samu group after getting the wheel change, but rode too hard chasing and was dropped by Samu. But because he lost time in a somewhat unfair manner and lost significant time in that stage, it was treated as though the entirety of his deficit was caused by the puncture, which it wasn't, perpetuating the false interpretation.

 

[fbjim]

I mean, yeah, they could have attacked, their real "mistake" was arguably letting Carapaz go in the first place. Then again, Carapaz went on an attack and got nothing in exchange for a small amount of Movistar domestique work.

I think people are understandably upset that the GC race would have been more interesting if the teams had played chicken in the peloton and Carapaz got a minute, but this isn't a stage for Mas anyway - his best terrain is in the following days.

 

[Lequack]

Also Quintana lost about 13 minutes today or something. Before that he was 2:45 down, behind Gaudu and ahead of Nibali.

 

[Bolder]

He always looks like that after a big effort, while even if he's turned himself inside out, Pogacar is fresh as a daisy 2 minutes after the finish...

 

[Breezy1985]

There were 3 reasons for Movistar not to pace.

1. Tiring Carapaz & UAE team
2. Greater Hope that Ineos wont chase them when they attack
3. Conserving their own team for the Alps and additional tactical options

1 reason to attack

F*(& Ineos