Wout will whine for the next 9 months if he has to do donkey duty for Rog, Vingegaard, AND Dumo
Wout will whine for the next 9 months if he has to do donkey duty for Rog, Vingegaard, AND Dumo
- Feb 20, 2012
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Yeah but lets also ignore the big elephant in the room that the Tour has abandoned tappones for years, mountain stages are getting shorter, and that stronger teams make it far easier for worse TTers to limit the damage.yup.
still would prefer another 40-60kms of ITT and some longer flat stages to wear out all those petite climbers that are the fad of modern cycling. have the Bernals, the Yateses, and the Carapazes picking up the scraps competing for polka dots. let the real (men) all-rounders fight it out for yellow.
- Jul 7, 2013
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Wout will shock the world by attacking Primoz & co on the cobbles and gaining a solid lead. The mountains will be more difficult but there's nothing the mighty Wout can't do - even losing a few kg between the cobbles and the Alps is possible.
- Sep 11, 2016
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You're all missing the one person who is gonna smash em all next year in the Tour.......The Daaaaaawwwgggg is gonna be back in town.
- Aug 31, 2019
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Are "all-rounders" only about combining climbing and TT ability?
Bernal: the guy have podiumed Lombardia and was 3rd in Strade this year ahead of WVA and Pidcock. He's also proved great abilities in crosswind . He is clearly a strong rider in a lot more areas than just climbing.
Carapaz: the way he won the Olympics and for example how he won that stage in Pologne last year shows that he is a lot more than a one trick pony.
Very hard to see past Pog and Rog if they stay upright but then again you would say that on practically any Grand Tour parcours.
Have not seen the profiles yet myself but based on what I read in this thread the 2 big pluses are Col du Granon and very few sprint stages by Tour standards with three 2 big minuses the lack of proper climbing straight out of the box on any mountain stage also the overuse of Mende and PDBF which are both decent finished but could do with a rest for
at least 2/3 years before they next feature.
Have not seen the profiles yet myself but based on what I read in this thread the 2 big pluses are Col du Granon and very few sprint stages by Tour standards with three 2 big minuses the lack of proper climbing straight out of the box on any mountain stage also the overuse of Mende and PDBF which are both decent finished but could do with a rest for
at least 2/3 years before they next feature.
Odds on Roglic crashing out before the end of stage 5 and all the excitement for GC being gone?
- Apr 16, 2009
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Same thing with me. I wish the stages were longer. Especially the ones in the mountains. The mountains are good. They have good altitude and are hard enough. Just that it needs more kilometers or extra mountain in each stage. The cobbles and altitude are the only things that might give you some uncertainty in the winner. Other than that it will be 100% Pog. I am changing my mind about Roglic. I getting disappointed with him in some of the bigger one day races. I hope to be wrong so that we can have a big duel, otherwise it will be a boring Tour de France.
- Jul 16, 2015
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I assume we're talking about the "best" all-rounders in a GC. That would be Pogacar & Roglic right now. They win TT's & they win MTF (mountain top finishes).
Bernal with all his bike handling skills, positioning or whatnot is not at that level. If he wants to win the Tour, he'll need some serious good fortune whilst the 2 Slovenians have serious misfortune. Because on intrinsic value when all 3 are on form I don't see it.
- Jul 16, 2015
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I'm sure Roglic will benefit from the current narrative, actually, i.e. with all the talk about him crashing on the cobbles or being disappointing whilst Pog is arch favorite. It's less pressure.
- Aug 31, 2019
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Yes, I never meant to question Pogacar and Roglic as they are brilliant allrounders, but I felt Big Doopie gives a very degrading image of what kind of riders the "petite climbers" Bernal and Carapaz really are.
It will be interesting to see if the future narrative will in june next year, if it will still be about Roglic possilby crashing and "cant win le Tour" and that Pogacar is the unbeatable new Merckx. I expect Roglic to win a lot of races and then we'll head into the Tour where most people are expecting a very close fight between the two of them.
- Apr 16, 2009
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LOL. Cavendish is computing whether he will go again!!!!Notice the expression of Alaphilipe face when Pogačar told him what lay ahead:
Cavendish still computing. But where will i sprint? Just give the green to van Aert.
Kocke, La Planche, dvakrat Galibier, Alpe d'Huez, Hautacam, kronometer v 20. etapi ...
Komaj se je končala kolesarska sezona, že se veselimo vrhunca 2022. V Parizu so razkrili traso 109. Dirke po Franciji, na kateri bo med 1. in 24. julijem Tadej Pogačar lovil tretjo zaporedno zmago, pri čemer ga čakajo kocke in kopica ciljnih vzponov.www.rtvslo.si
On a more serious note Tour 2022 looks good to me. There is potential for greatness involved. Hopefully that potential won't lose the teeth in cobbles. Fingers crossed that Tour 2022 will deliver!
- Apr 16, 2009
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The narrative will change next year because we can expect the big guns to go to the classics. Strade, Flanders, others. It will be very interesting.
- Jul 7, 2013
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I think we all are blinded by Pog & Rog and forget that Chris has 9 more months to get enough races under his belt!
- Jul 16, 2015
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I think that opening 13km TT is of absolute massive importance regarding what follows, especially stage 2.
The fight for position in the peloton is usually absolutely mental from the moment gaps are small & many teams & riders have a chance at yellow in the first week. But 13km flat is actually quite a big distance & it will create some gaps. Not between GC guys (although non specialists will suffer more), but enough to send sprinters & other hopefuls out of yellow contention before stage 2. Some crosswind action on that 18km bridge section on the second day as well could further reduce the size of the peloton (& the risk of crashes as well). So I don't see the first week being a bloodbath like last year (until the cobbled stage anyway, where things will be dicey). I can totally see WvA in contention for an early yellow jersey, in any case.
And with regards to Pogacar, I think he has absolutely massive recuperation & endurance capabilities which places him as an obvious favorite in a 3 week race (& monuments), which is why the relatively shorter length of the mountain stages & the fact the weekends aren't top heavy with difficulties doesn't play to his strengths IMO.
I don't think either last year's TT or his Grand Bornand Alpine raid this year were coincidental: both came at a weekend after a very hard week of racing & after a very hard stage the day before. I don't see a similar opportunity in the race profile we see here (although I'm not 100% certain of this, obviously). When on equal form & without either getting mauled by race length & accumulated fatigue, Pog doesn't drop Rog.
The fight for position in the peloton is usually absolutely mental from the moment gaps are small & many teams & riders have a chance at yellow in the first week. But 13km flat is actually quite a big distance & it will create some gaps. Not between GC guys (although non specialists will suffer more), but enough to send sprinters & other hopefuls out of yellow contention before stage 2. Some crosswind action on that 18km bridge section on the second day as well could further reduce the size of the peloton (& the risk of crashes as well). So I don't see the first week being a bloodbath like last year (until the cobbled stage anyway, where things will be dicey). I can totally see WvA in contention for an early yellow jersey, in any case.
And with regards to Pogacar, I think he has absolutely massive recuperation & endurance capabilities which places him as an obvious favorite in a 3 week race (& monuments), which is why the relatively shorter length of the mountain stages & the fact the weekends aren't top heavy with difficulties doesn't play to his strengths IMO.
I don't think either last year's TT or his Grand Bornand Alpine raid this year were coincidental: both came at a weekend after a very hard week of racing & after a very hard stage the day before. I don't see a similar opportunity in the race profile we see here (although I'm not 100% certain of this, obviously). When on equal form & without either getting mauled by race length & accumulated fatigue, Pog doesn't drop Rog.
- Jul 7, 2013
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After Pogacar's comments today part of me is disappointed that he won't try the Giro next year. To me Giro+Vuelta double for him and the Tour victory for Roglic isn't a bad scenario.
Fair point. The stage before Le Grand Bornand was crazy and actually the whole week was. This coupled with bad weather helped Pog absolutely crush the competition.
Fair point. The stage before Le Grand Bornand was crazy and actually the whole week was. This coupled with bad weather helped Pog absolutely crush the competition.
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I have a feeling, Gianetti and the main sponsor slowly start to think about six TdF victories with Tadej...
- Oct 2, 2020
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Will the 2022 TDF be in the bag at the end of stage 7 (La Planche des Belles Filles)?
oh, just trying to trigger a reaction. nothing bad meant by it.
however, i do dislike how all the petite climbers are now always in the conversation as GT favorites. they simply shouldn't be if the route tests what GTs are supposed to test.
and that is why i like the TDF the most because it rarely is won by anyone but the best all-rounder. even though they continue to try by shortening distances and eliminating almost all ITT.
i am one who does not need the TDF to be close to be exciting. i have always marveled and enjoyed the great rides of individual riders.
besides, if you put petite climbers in a hole, they're then forced to attack from further out which actually makes racing more exciting (bernal in the vuelta). if you have only one short ITT at the end of the race, you encourage racing so as not to lose rather than trying to win. you have riders waiting to the last few hundred meters of an MTF to win or lose by just a few seconds. i would argue that in trying to favor petite climbers in GT routes with the aim of making things close and suspenseful almost always backfires. it leads to even more defensive and less attacking racing.
my 2 cents.
PS. Bernal is a terrific rider, gifted. He is hardly exciting however, does not have any explosivity and requires an extreme route (almost no ITT and lots of high altitude) and the failure of true top all-rounders to prevail. not exactly what I enjoy in my GT winner...
I don't know why anyone would have to do donkey duty for Dumo. Dumo is now the donkey until he proves otherwise.
- Jan 4, 2020
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oh, just trying to trigger a reaction. nothing bad meant by it.
however, i do dislike how all the petite climbers are now always in the conversation as GT favorites. they simply shouldn't be if the route tests what GTs are supposed to test.
and that is why i like the TDF the most because it rarely is won by anyone but the best all-rounder. even though they continue to try by shortening distances and eliminating almost all ITT.
i am one who does not need the TDF to be close to be exciting. i have always marveled and enjoyed the great rides of individual riders.
besides, if you put petite climbers in a hole, they're then forced to attack from further out which actually makes racing more exciting (bernal in the vuelta). if you have only one short ITT at the end of the race, you encourage racing so as not to lose rather than trying to win. you have riders waiting to the last few hundred meters of an MTF to win or lose by just a few seconds. i would argue that in trying to favor petite climbers in GT routes with the aim of making things close and suspenseful almost always backfires. it leads to even more defensive and less attacking racing.
my 2 cents.
PS. Bernal is a terrific rider, gifted. He is hardly exciting however, does not have any explosivity and requires an extreme route (almost no ITT and lots of high altitude) and the failure of true top all-rounders to prevail. not exactly what I enjoy in my GT winner...
I think using the term petite climber all the time is very dismissive, and also Bernal is certainly not without explosivity, he at least has more of that than Evenepoel who if I remember correctly you respect.
Do you prefer GC riders like Wiggins and Dumoulin before Bernal, Aru, Quintana, etc?
I know there weren’t any Slovenians there, but I don’t think that’s a fair assessment of Bernal’s Giro win at all. He showed he could beat his gc rivals on sterrato, on short climbs, on long climbs, in bad weather, etc etc, and he’s a capable ITT rider when necessary (ie, not when riding a final-stage TT with a 3 minute gc cushion). If anything, he struggled the most in the high mountains in the last week.
He probably can’t beat Rog and/or Pog over the course of the 3 weeks of the Tour, but not for the reasons you describe, IMHO.
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