Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 13: Châtillon-sur-Chalaronne - Grand Colombier, 137.8k

[nightowl]

UAE seem to have issues getting the pacing of their mountain train right. They got to the end of the real climbing without two of their proper climbers ever doing a pull, meanwhile Laengen paced most of the steepest part of the climb after already having worked on the flat - just makes no sense

 

[FrontHeadlock]

It is just logical to do a Pogistomp at least at the end, as it is "free" seconds if you will when he can do it. And he is still behind. What would you suggest he do? Wait for the last 50m with the sprint?

I'm not saying he should or he shouldn't. Rather, from a strategy perspective, it makes it seem like he feels like he needs to do so.

 

[DNP-Old]

De Buyst just gave a very destructive interview about Ewan.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

De Buyst just gave a very destructive interview about Ewan.

Well, what did he say?

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

UAE seem to have issues getting the pacing of their mountain train right. They got to the end of the real climbing without two of their proper climbers ever doing a pull, meanwhile Laengen paced most of the steepest part of the climb after already having worked on the flat - just makes no sense

I think it makes some sense when you look at tomorrow's profile.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I'm not saying he should or he shouldn't. Rather, from a strategy perspective, it makes it seem like he feels like he needs to do so.

My point is that it makes zero sense not to do so, so I don't get the idea out of it that it's done out of insecuritty as you have suggested in another post.

 

[nightowl]

I agree, but that makes the last 400m more curious IMO. From an outside perspective, it makes it seem like Pog thinks he needs these little seconds.

The seconds are there for him to have for the cost of 20-30 seconds of effort - there’s no reason for him not to take them

 

[Gigs_98]

What are you smoking?

Roglic got beaten on this exact MTF then he/Jumbo got flamed for 3 years for not attacking more.

People just need to stop pretending half the criticism is about tactics when they are completely unable to criticize when "their" guy does it

To be honest, I don't know if Jumbo were actually criticized for how they raced the Grand Colombiere 3 years ago. The thing they still get criticized for is having Pogacar in the ropes yet refusing to go for the knock out in the Alps. That's a bit different from what we are seeing right now.

But then again, I agree with your general point. If right now Pogacar is in a position to drop Vingegaard, he should really really do that.

 

[Didinho]

UAE just took this day to try for the stage win, we all know Pogi loves those. The next days he doesn’t need his team because he only has Vingo to follow. Let Jumbo do the work from now, use them as your own team. Yates will be there in the end normally, that’s all he need. Let the others rest a bit for when you get yellow. Jumbo will take control as they say the stages for Vingo are coming up.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

My point is that it makes zero sense not to do so, so I don't get the idea out of it that it's done out of insecuritty as you have suggested in another post.

Nah, I disagree. Someone who thought he was going to win by 2-3mins wouldn't care.

Someone who is concerned that he might lose big time gaps, or is not able to get a big time gap, starts to care about 4 seconds here, 10 seconds there.

 

[theyoungest]

My point is that you have no point saying that a rider is better when he sheds more time than the winner, 2nd or 3rd.

Sure, dude. Pello Bilbao is the best rider in the entire Tour. After all, he won with the biggest gap so far.

 

[nightowl]

I think it makes some sense when you look at tomorrow's profile.

I mean maybe, but realistically Jumbo will want to assemble their Tourmalet train again and if they do the UAE climbers won’t be doing anything anyway

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Nah, I disagree. Someone who thought he was going to win by 2-3mins wouldn't care.

Someone who is concerned that he might lose big time gaps, or is not able to get a big time gap, starts to care about 4 seconds here, 10 seconds there.

Well you are right about the fact, that he thinks bonus seconds are good. But if you think he is "insecure" because he doesn't know or think or feel he can gain minutes (!) on Vingegaard after what we have seen, than, it seems to me, you are confusing insecurity with facing up to the situation at hand.

 

[theyoungest]

I'm not saying he should or he shouldn't. Rather, from a strategy perspective, it makes it seem like he feels like he needs to do so.

He does! It would be stupid not to take these bonus seconds. They're there, so why not take them.

Of course when he loses a couple of minutes on Col de la Loze it makes him look like a moron, but I don't think in the end it tires him out more than Vingegaard. He's just sprinting, it's his natural talent and it probably takes Vingegaard more effort to follow his wheel than it does Pogi to sprint.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Sure, dude. Pello Bilbao is the best rider in the entire Tour. After all, he won with the biggest gap so far.

If you want to go out doing a cowabanga, be my guest. Just don't get ironic because you have no point and makes you feel good about yourself.

The time taken during a stage is a measurement of performance for a stage's given length. Sum up the entire stages and you get the best rider (not the strongest).

 

[skippo12]

Is it really only about Pogs kick? It´s not like Vingegaard immediately loses his wheel. So far he managed to hold on for 20-25s. Gets dropped because Pog continues to push the pace or follows it up with a 2nd acceleration.

 

[topt]

If he attacks earlier, Vingegaard catches him back.

Pogacar always has Vingegaard beat on kick, but not if the effort becomes longer than 1-2 K.

this is very questionable right now

 

[theyoungest]

If you want to go out doing a cowabanga, be my guest. Just don't get ironic because you have no point and makes you feel good about yourself.

The time taken during a stage is a measurement of performance for a stage's given length. Sum up the entire stages and you get the best rider (not the strongest).

It doesn't make me feel good about myself to have to argue something that is so painfully obvious, I'd rather discuss using sensible arguments. Cycling is a great sport for many reasons, one of them being that the strongest rider doesn't always win. In the case of a breakaway, almost never.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

Well you are right about the fact, that he thinks bonus seconds are good. But if you think he is "insecure" because he doesn't know or think or feel he can gain minutes (!) on Vingegaard after what we have seen, than, it seems to me, you are confusing insecurity with facing up to the situation at hand.

When I say insecure, I'm saying his concern about getting seconds here and there makes me think that he believes he will come out negative overall on the stages that produce big time gaps. That's what I mean by insecurity -- he's insecure about his losses where time gaps are big, so he tries to accrue lots of little gaps.

Is that how it will work out in the end? Time will tell. I just think this is a window into how he's thinking about the race overall.

 

[theyoungest]

If he attacks earlier, Vingegaard catches him back.

Pogacar always has Vingegaard beat on kick, but not if the effort becomes longer than 1-2 K.

It has to be said, last year on Les Belles Filles, Vingegaard almost beat Pogacar. This year he hasn't come close to beating him on a finish like this, in fact Pogi has always gapped him. So the power dynamic has shifted a little. How this pans out on the real "Vingegaard" stages remains to be seen.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Grand Colombier is a perfectly fine climb. It's just Culoz needs to stop paying for it, so we can use other sides. Unless we do something with the descent back into Culoz to keep only the steep part of that side, that would work. But nevertheless there is nothing inherently wrong with it. Yes, the tougher gradients are at the bottom and it gets easier higher up... but that's precisely what people like about Alpe d'Huez, and criticise about things like Bola del Mundo, Cuitu Negru, Puy de Dôme or Col de la Loze, where the final part being the steepest means that everybody waits for that part. However, Grand Colombier is also being used abysmally, and it is developing a reputation as, like, the anti-Formigal. Formigal is a nothingburger climb that has no right to produce entertaining racing and would ordinarily be the kind of stage where we see a sprint of the elites in the last kilometre or so, but seems to invariably produce far more than it offers; Grand Colombier is a climb that offers plenty and delivers nothing.

Kuss doing nothing is excusable because UAE were doing his job, but I really don't understand chasing down Adam Yates unless he just remembered that one part of his old job was to not just make sure he did nothing interesting, but to make sure nobody else did anything interesting either. UAE riding all day to gain nothing like they're prime Jumbo-for-Roglič? Well, since Jumbo have never been able to truly escape any inadequacies being labelled Rabofail, I don't see why we shouldn't call the effort expended for such paltry returns today Lamprefail.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Vingegaard defending for his life, too bad the climb wasnt hard enough. Let's go Pogi!

Climb wasn't hard enough due to three reasons:
1) Short stage
2) Only one HC/Kat 1 climb.
3) UAE strategy to nurse until about 1k mark, putting all the eggs in the basket that Pogi would do more heavy damage Pogi style.

In that way the stage became fully Pogi territory.

 

[nightowl]

Grand Colombier is a perfectly fine climb. It's just Culoz needs to stop paying for it, so we can use other sides. Unless we do something with the descent back into Culoz to keep only the steep part of that side, that would work. But nevertheless there is nothing inherently wrong with it. Yes, the tougher gradients are at the bottom and it gets easier higher up... but that's precisely what people like about Alpe d'Huez, and criticise about things like Bola del Mundo, Cuitu Negru, Puy de Dôme or Col de la Loze, where the final part being the steepest means that everybody waits for that part. However, Grand Colombier is also being used abysmally, and it is developing a reputation as, like, the anti-Formigal. Formigal is a nothingburger climb that has no right to produce entertaining racing and would ordinarily be the kind of stage where we see a sprint of the elites in the last kilometre or so, but seems to invariably produce far more than it offers; Grand Colombier is a climb that offers plenty and delivers nothing.

Kuss doing nothing is excusable because UAE were doing his job, but I really don't understand chasing down Adam Yates unless he just remembered that one part of his old job was to not just make sure he did nothing interesting, but to make sure nobody else did anything interesting either. UAE riding all day to gain nothing like they're prime Jumbo-for-Roglič? Well, since Jumbo have never been able to truly escape any inadequacies being labelled Rabofail, I don't see why we shouldn't call the effort expended for such paltry returns today Lamprefail.

This side of Grand Colombier could be great if it came towards the end of the tour after a hard block of mountain stages

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

When I say insecure, I'm saying his concern about getting seconds here and there makes me think that he believes he will come out negative overall on the stages that produce big time gaps. That's what I mean by insecurity -- he's insecure about his losses where time gaps are big, so he tries to accrue lots of little gaps.

Is that how it will work out in the end? Time will tell. I just think this is a window into how he's thinking about the race overall.

You could look at it a different way in that Pog is taking advantage of his advantage over Ving that he can put forth a few minutes effort to gain seconds.

You are making the assumption that there will be huge time gaps between Pog and Ving,and that may not end up being the case.

 

[Wyndbrook]

James Shaw: "Today was like flipping a coin, and I chose to gamble and put all my money on black".

No wonder you didn't win.

Basically on the scrap heap last autumn, now best placed EF rider on gc.