Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 14: Annemasse - Morzine, 151.8k

[Zoetemelk-fan]

I don't buy into the theory that long stages are bad for Pogacar. I think it's more likely that the opposite is true. Both stages Pogacar lost significant amount of time to Vingegaard last year were actually short. So these stages imo are not a very good indicator if he suffers from long grueling stages generally. Also if we compare victories Pogacar has 9 200km+ victories, whereas Vingegaard has 0.
JV have made the race really hard for everybody on two occasions to distance Pogacar, and once it completly backfired and the other time VIngegaard didn't even attack once.
Given that Pogacar usually excells at longer distances I don't see why that would not be the case in a Tour stage as well. You could argue that maybe Vingegaards recovery is better, but that would maybe only even it out somewhat.

A 220-230k LeTour 3rd week brutal mountain stage cannot be compared with a 274k Ronde van Vlaanderen one-day race.

The non-negligible aspect of restitution coming into question here, of which I seriously believe would have counted if just a small, but still decisive advantage in Vingegaard's direction.

But now the answer is just allowed to blow in the wind.
Which of course is a shame.

 

[MartinGT]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1680241273507131393

View: https://twitter.com/saddleblaze/status/1680241273507131393?s=20


Brave and libellous

 

[Elos Anjos]

It's behind a paywall, but maybe in the Forum someone knows how to hack it.

Bikes of shame:

"Inadmisible cómo las motos de la vergüenza casi se cargan el mejor evento deportivo del mundo"

Ocurrió en la cima del Joux Plane, con Pogacar y Vingegaard al máximo de pulsaciones, cuando se estaban jugando la victoria. Tadej atacó para intentar sacarse la bonificación clave

www.marca.com

 

[D. Pecher]

The bruhaha abaout the Motos is a discussion about the symptoms, not the root of the problem. The root of the problem was spectators standing in the road 500m from the summit and effectively boxing them in.

 

[Monsi]

The bruhaha abaout the Motos is a discussion about the symptoms, not the root of the problem. The root of the problem was spectators standing in the road 500m from the summit and effectively boxing them in.

Nope. The root of the problem was the organizers not installing barriers in the last km of Joux Plane at least. If you're gonna put bonus seconds on top of a climb (or even any climb without bonus seconds), at least put barriers for that whole last km. If there's barriers, spectators aren't too close and the motorbikes are free to ride away.

 

[MartinGT]

All the so called experts and ex pros don't seem bothered about the motos pacing Pogi for a while do they? That's totally slipped their mind.

Brian Smith also laughing at JV getting 1s and that's it after all Jumbo's work. Yet when Pogi takes a couple its 'Great work, chipping away' just hypocrites.

 

[Volderke]

Nope. The root of the problem was the organizers not installing barriers in the last km of Joux Plane at least. If you're gonna put bonus seconds on top of a climb (or even any climb without bonus seconds), at least put barriers for that whole last km. If there's barriers, spectators aren't too close and the motorbikes are free to ride away.

this. And the TdF has enough money to do so. They chose not to.
Now they punish the 2 motorcycles involved, as if that is going to solve the problem in today's stage and Wednesday's stage... They are just blaming the motorcycles and aren't releasing a press message to apologize and say they will take measures to keep mountain tops safer by putting up more fences...

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Brian Smith also laughing at JV getting 1s and that's it after all Jumbo's work. Yet when Pogi takes a couple its 'Great work, chipping away' just hypocrites.

Meanwhile here on the forum it‘s been: Oh, Pogačar has been overusing his team for so little gain.
Meanwhile, Jumbo does the most rigorous pacing strategy by any team ever, starting to pace hard less than 30k in, and then Vingegaard fans said that it was all according to plan that Vingegaard gains one second.

 

[D. Pecher]

At least one little girl won big though yesterday. A little girl was standing in the finish area with a placard saying "Tadej, if I take a picture with you, my dad buys me a rabbit".

Needless to say, she got her picture with pog and Dad's probably collecting greenery for her new friend now

 

[Rackham]

All the so called experts and ex pros don't seem bothered about the motos pacing Pogi for a while do they? That's totally slipped their mind.

Brian Smith also laughing at JV getting 1s and that's it after all Jumbo's work. Yet when Pogi takes a couple its 'Great work, chipping away' just hypocrites.

8 seconds > 1 second. Especially with the amount of team energy required for the former (UAE paced on the flat & one climb, Jumbo meanwhile did over multiple cols).

The only part of yesterday's result which could be deemed positive for Vingegaard is the 'momentum' aspect (namely he stopped haemorrhaging time). But this 'mini swing' in his favor might not last long considering the finish today on stage 15.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

A 220-230k LeTour 3rd week brutal mountain stage cannot be compared with a 274k Ronde van Vlaanderen one-day race.

The non-negligible aspect of restitution coming into question here, of which I seriously believe would have counted if just a small, but still decisive advantage in Vingegaard's direction.

But now the answer is just allowed to blow in the wind.
Which of course is a shame.

No you cannot compare the Ronde to a third week monster stage, yet that wasn't my point. My point was that the results point into the direction that long and hard is what usually suits Pogacar in one day races and stage races, so how would it not still suit him even in a third week? Sure there is fatigue, but that will (I guess?!?) not transform your abilities, just make them less effective.

 

[Netserk]

I think of Ronde more as recovering from many short intense efforts. Marathon mountain stages consist of quite different efforts. The former suited Valverde, the latter didn't.

 

[D. Pecher]

No you cannot compare the Ronde to a third week monster stage, yet that wasn't my point. My point was that the results point into the direction that long and hard is what usually suits Pogacar in one day races and stage races, so how would it not still suit him even in a third week? Sure there is fatigue, but that will (I guess?!?) not transform your abilities, just make them less effective.

I think this discussion is a bit academic. monster-stages of 200+k over several climbs during a three-week tour was what brought us the dark days of yore to begin with. Some people forget that a large paret of that alchemistic age of magic potions and ointments was not neccessarily the performance enhancements, but, especially for the doms, to make them even able to regenerate after several such torturous ordels. Quite frankly, I'm quite satisfied with the shorter mountain stages.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

All the so called experts and ex pros don't seem bothered about the motos pacing Pogi for a while do they? That's totally slipped their mind.

So you are saying the experts and ex pros don't see the thing, and that's an argument for the thing being there?

Brian Smith also laughing at JV getting 1s and that's it after all Jumbo's work. Yet when Pogi takes a couple its 'Great work, chipping away' just hypocrites.

To be fair, yesterday was a much harder stage than the one UAE paced, and paced much harder than UAE did. Also Pogacar got 800% that day of what Vingegaard got yesterday.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I think this discussion is a bit academic.

I like academic discussions

If the long stages were a, or the reason for the dark ages, is another topic alltogether though. I personally think they should have a few very long hard days as well, doesn't mean they should be back to back and historically there have always been shorter stages to balance out the longer ones, if I am not fooled by my memory.

 

[Netserk]

I think this discussion is a bit academic. monster-stages of 200+k over several climbs during a three-week tour was what brought us the dark days of yore to begin with. Some people forget that a large paret of that alchemistic age of magic potions and ointments was not neccessarily the performance enhancements, but, especially for the doms, to make them even able to regenerate after several such torturous ordels. Quite frankly, I'm quite satisfied with the shorter mountain stages.

Seriously, look up the historic Tour routes. This is ass-backwards.

 

[MartinGT]

So you are saying the experts and ex pros don't see the thing, and that's an argument for the thing being there?



To be fair, yesterday was a much harder stage than the one UAE paced, and paced much harder than UAE did. Also Pogacar got 800% that day of what Vingegaard got yesterday.

They just seem to overlook the fact that the motos were helping Pogi after he dropped JV and then when they're side by side and he attacks again they're a problem.

Like what's been said. If you're placing bonification at the top then barrier off the 1km to it. Problem solved. What are the motos supposed to do? Kill people? They rode on at one point and the fans just swarmed the road again.

Yes the motos stopped the attack, but they also helped Pogi earlier.

 

[Elos Anjos]

They just seem to overlook the fact that the motos were helping Pogi after he dropped JV and then when they're side by side and he attacks again they're a problem.

Like what's been said. If you're placing bonification at the top then barrier off the 1km to it. Problem solved. What are the motos supposed to do? Kill people? They rode on at one point and the fans just swarmed the road again.

Yes the motos stopped the attack, but they also helped Pogi earlier.

This forum is becoming full of intellectual dishonest takes like these in bold. It's funny how this "Pogi motopacing" only surfaces to "counter" the disgrace that happened and everyone witnessed. Vingo and cycling deserves better fans.

 

[DNP-Old]

Something: *happens*
People: 'Yes, but did you know that in the year 1784 something similar happened. I didn't see you complain then, so you can't complain now.'

🫠​

 

[MartinGT]

This forum is becoming full of intellectual dishonest takes like these in bold. It's funny how this "Pogi motopacing" only surfaces to "counter" the disgrace that happened and everyone witnessed. Vingo and cycling deserves better fans.

It was a disgrace. ASO need to learn from this.

 

[meat puppet]

I am anyone-but-pog, not pro-Vingo, but of course he got blocked and it sucks.

 

[saunaking]

It was a disgrace. ASO need to learn from this.

it needs to happen 3 times, maybe 4 til ASO adjusts

 

[proffate]

Sure, but crash, bonk, crack etc can also happen to those who are already at least 2 minutes down on Hindley. So Hindley is in the best position by far. History also shows Hindley gets better in the 3rd week and he has specifically targeted this race.

The question was who should be considered in contention for the podium.

Didn't take long from my post for Hindley to crack. Apologize now

 

[Panda Claws]

I am personally outraged and have already contacted all of my local constituents as well as lodged a formal complaint with Interpol. We cannot allow any fragrance of possible corruption to taint and stain our already battered sport.

Unprofessional, unacceptable and probably unconstitutional too.

 

[Oldermanish]

I am personally outraged and have already contacted all of my local constituents as well as lodged a formal complaint with Interpol. We cannot allow any fragrance of possible corruption to taint and stain our already battered sport.

Unprofessional, unacceptable and probably unconstitutional too.

And on to the post rest day TT. Much will be answered except the reason Jonas didn't put in any digs today. Weird finish for the GC.