Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 16: Passy - Combloux, 22.4k (ITT)

[madthebad]

Pre-Tour I'd agree, and I even thought the same 3-4 days ago.

But Pogacar has looked weakening the last 2 stages, and then I think the heat overcooked him in his TT helmet the 2nd half of the TT.

We've never before seen Pogacar look like he did the last 7-8 K today, his face was drawn, his eyes were empty and his pedal stroke looked laboured and lacked his usual power and rhythm.

I think the lack of proper preparation (because of the injury) is costing him more in week 3 than it normally would.

Pogacar is looking human this tour but not because he is not performing close to his best if you look at the gap to the riders behind him in the GC but because Jumbo and Vingegaard are at a totally different level or at least Jonas was in the TT. As long as Pogacar still beats Van Aert by almost a minute and a half in a TT that tells me Pogi is at a very good level.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Obviously Vingegaard rode the TT of his life today, but I think the reason the difference got so dramatic is that Pogacar is not at his best, as said in the post before this one..

What really baffles me is that you are so determined to let this look like a non historic performance. While by objective means it is one. The advantage in avrg. speed, the gaps, the s/km lost by Pogacar and WvA and the sheer dominance of the climbing performance.
But when this is pointed out to you, like by me, you say you won't discuss any more and point me to the clinic. It's like you're saying: if those are the facts, that means it's a topic for the clinic, therefore those cannot be the facts!

 

[Boehmand]

I have just been reading Marca, a Spanish newspaper and the blatant state of unbelief there towards Vingo's performance is showing. I guess the fair conclusion is that Spanish people are also sour loosers.

Do you mean this article?

Vingegaard destroza a Pogacar y amarra medio Tour contra el crono

La crono que iba a ser decisiva para decidir parte de este Tour de Francia arrancó con dos malas noticias. La primera la recibió Movistar, acostumbrado a recibirlas en los últimos

www.marca.com

Their reasoning is Vingegaard taking more risks and riding more aggressively - the very things you called BS on only a few posts back

 

[Elos Anjos]

Do you mean this article?

Vingegaard destroza a Pogacar y amarra medio Tour contra el crono

La crono que iba a ser decisiva para decidir parte de este Tour de Francia arrancó con dos malas noticias. La primera la recibió Movistar, acostumbrado a recibirlas en los últimos

www.marca.com

Their reasoning is Vingegaard taking more risks and riding more aggressively - the very things you called BS on only a few posts back

No, I mean this and I was referring to the comments.

Vingegaard destroza a Pogacar y amarra medio Tour contra el crono

La crono que iba a ser decisiva para decidir parte de este Tour de Francia arrancó con dos malas noticias. La primera la recibió Movistar, acostumbrado a recibirlas en los últimos

www.marca.com

Of course no newspaper is going to break the fourth wall.

Vingo did take more risks swetty, no one is denying that. What people are stating is that is not sufficient to explain the gap. Open your eyes-

 

[Boehmand]

Pogacar is looking human this tour but not because he is not performing close to his best if you look at the gap to the riders behind him in the GC but because Jumbo and Vingegaard are at a totally different level or at least Jonas was in the TT. As long as Pogacar still beats Van Aert by almost a minute and a half in a TT that tells me Pogi is at a very good level.

I disagree, I most certainly do not think Pogacar is at his best.

He was (or close to it) the first 15 stages, but has started to lose his mojo the last 3 stages (today included), and my reasoning is the lack of proper preparation.

I also do not think Van Aert is at the same level as last year, I think his stage results and his Dom work this Tour proves that. I think he has timed his shape to culminate later, and is going into red more seldom, because of Worlds coming up

On the other hand, Vingegaard has come into the Tour better than ever before, the entire season he has been better than the last 2 years, just compare his palmares for spring 22 and 23..

 

[Boehmand]

What really baffles me is that you are so determined to let this look like a non historic performance. While by objective means it is one. The advantage in avrg. speed, the gaps, the s/km lost by Pogacar and WvA and the sheer dominance of the climbing performance.
But when this is pointed out to you, like by me, you say you won't discuss any more and point me to the clinic. It's like you're saying: if those are the facts, that means it's a topic for the clinic, therefore those cannot be the facts!

I'm not saying it's non-historic, I absolutely think it is - but I am trying to explain why it happened.

Obviously Vingegaard did not just magically become much better than Pogacar, so I am trying to give objective reasons as to why today happened the way it did.

If your reply is "no, it's doping", then yes, I'll refer you to the clinic, because I do not think it is an appropriate response.

 

[Boehmand]

No, I mean this and I was referring to the comments.

Vingegaard destroza a Pogacar y amarra medio Tour contra el crono

La crono que iba a ser decisiva para decidir parte de este Tour de Francia arrancó con dos malas noticias. La primera la recibió Movistar, acostumbrado a recibirlas en los últimos

www.marca.com

Of course no newspaper is going to break the fourth wall.

Vingo did take more risks swetty, no one is denying that. What people are stating is that is not sufficient to explain the gap. Open your eyes-

I don't care what some casual random observers think, it's the same in every country this time of year, people that only follow cycling when the Tour is on, come out of the woodwork with uninformed opinion - it happens in Denmark too.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Tom Dumoulin: The best time trial ever ridden in cycling.

"I'm simply speechless. I think this is the best time trial ever ridden in cycling. It's truly incredible, an unparalleled time trial performance. Jonas performed brilliantly both uphill and downhill. I have no words to describe it," lauds Dumoulin to Dutch broadcaster NOS following the stage.

"Truly unparalleled" - Tom Dumoulin hails Vingegaard's stage 16 victory as 'the best time trial ever ridden'

Jonas Vingegaard's stage 16 performance at the 2023 Tour de France will surely go down in history as one of the greatest rides in the long history of cycling's most illustrious race. Former Giro d'Ita...

cyclinguptodate.com

 

[Elos Anjos]

Tom Dumoulin: The best time trial ever ridden in cycling.

"I'm simply speechless. I think this is the best time trial ever ridden in cycling. It's truly incredible, an unparalleled time trial performance. Jonas performed brilliantly both uphill and downhill. I have no words to describe it," lauds Dumoulin to Dutch broadcaster NOS following the stage.

"Truly unparalleled" - Tom Dumoulin hails Vingegaard's stage 16 victory as 'the best time trial ever ridden'

Jonas Vingegaard's stage 16 performance at the 2023 Tour de France will surely go down in history as one of the greatest rides in the long history of cycling's most illustrious race. Former Giro d'Ita...

cyclinguptodate.com

Tom is very eloquent when he wants to be read between the lines.

 

[johnymax]

I know it doesn't work this way, but...just for fun, insert Roglic's Monte Lussari performance without the chain drop into this ITT. Where does he rank, what do you think? Do you put him in front or behind Pogačar?

 

[Boehmand]

Tom is very eloquent when he wants to be read between the lines.

You make for a great conspiracy theorist

 

[SHAD0W93]

Obviously Vingegaard rode the TT of his life today, but I think the reason the difference got so dramatic is that Pogacar is not at his best, as said in the post before this one..

Yet Pog still managed to have his best TT perform and destroyed everyone else.

 

[Boehmand]

I know it doesn't work this way, but...just for fun, insert Roglic's Monte Lussari performance without the chain drop into this ITT. Where does he rank, what do you think? Do you put him in front or behind Pogačar?

It's almost impossible to compare.

That climb was 7.8 K at 11.2 % - this was 2.8 K as 8.5 %

It's different worlds.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I'm not saying it's non-historic, I absolutely think it is - but I am trying to explain why it happened.

Obviously Vingegaard did not just magically become much better than Pogacar, so I am trying to give objective reasons as to why today happened the way it did.

If your reply is "no, it's doping", then yes, I'll refer you to the clinic, because I do not think it is an appropriate response.

Well, at least we can agree on the basic facts. But your explanation isn't a good one imo, on objective terms, because it does not take into account every other rider than Pogacar. Also your explanation of the time gap to Pogacar rest on the assumption that he had a bad day as well. All he said is that he didn't feel great on the last part, which is not surprising these efforts hurt, weather you're flying or not. Obejectively, that is going by the facts of the race not Pogacars subjective feeling, he did a pretty amazing TT compared to everybody else bar Vingegaard. Your explanation, as I understand it, boils down to: every rider is much worse at regeneration than Vingegaard. And this is sufficient to explain how Pogacar lost 4,75 s/km to Vingegaard, a difference so huge between first and second it is literally the second largest in Tour history and surpasses the feats of Indurain by a large margin.
I don't know the historical significance of the number, but I bet it is there: Outside of the Top 8 every rider was at least 4 km/h slower than Vingegaard.
This, you say, is objectively explainable by Pogacar being below peak? I don't understand how you can perceive the facts like that.
I think the term for which you pointed me to the clinic for was outlandish, I stand by that, without any mention of the clinic this is an outlandish performance by objective means. Do with that information what you will, but you really should try to understand, that there is more than mere fandom behind the questions that are being asked here.

 

[Boehmand]

Yet Pog still managed to have his best TT perform and destroyed everyone else.

I'd argue Pogacar in peak (week 3) condition would have "destroyed" everyone by at least 30-45 seconds more.

I mean we all saw him, it was not the "normal" Pogacar the last 6 K today, he looked worse than we have ever seen him before on a TT.

There was no power in the last part of the ride.

 

[Andy schleck]

Because he is. Pogacar did what he did in 2020 in PDBF and people at the time reacted with good reason to what they saw. And he has steadily proved how is a complete and deserved heir to Merckx .

What's utterly strange is this dumb framework of explaining Vingo's shredding performance with cornering and aero techniques.

I have just been reading Marca, a Spanish newspaper and the blatant state of unbelief there towards Vingo's performance is showing. I guess the fair conclusion is that Spanish people are also sour loosers.

Pogi was fished, deal with that. Stop crying.

 

[Elos Anjos]

You make for a great conspiracy theorist

WVA commenting for French channels was also in utter disbelief.

Jumbo was not smart. They have overdone it and will draw much attention to themselves.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Pogi was fished, deal with that. Stop crying.

Pogi was fished, deal with that. Stop crying.

Perhaps you should lurk more before posting.

 

[D. Pecher]

MODERATOR - another post for you to consider.

Care to elaborate as for the reasons?

 

[Ripper]

Well, that was something else!

 

[SHAD0W93]

I'd argue Pogacar in peak (week 3) condition would have "destroyed" everyone by at least 30-45 seconds more.

I mean we all saw him, it was not the "normal" Pogacar the last 6 K today, he looked worse than we have ever seen him before on a TT.

There was no power in the last part of the ride.

Why, just so Vinge’s time doesn’t look even crazier than it is?

Both have looked like that, it’s been a very hard Tour yet they were blow to blow with the other. Both looked good yesterday on the rest day and Pog looked fine until he started being told how much Vinge was wiping the floor with him.

 

[RobertCrawley]

draw much attention to themselves.

I believe they have done that by riding their bikes really fast.

 

[Andy schleck]

Care to elaborate as for the reasons?

Clinical issues. You should talk about that issues on clinical, not here.

 

[The Clogger]

WVA commenting for French channels was also in utter disbelief.

Jumbo was not smart. They have overdone it and will draw much attention to themselves.

Vingo is no different than Pogi. Just a higher skill ceiling especially with Pogi's broken wrist and questionable preparations. It is hilarious people like you are crying. You're fanboying Pogacar hard and when he is winning you're cheering all smiles. You can't handle though when it is the other way around. Everything is now boring and Tour de France will soon lose all their viewers.

 

[Boehmand]

Well, at least we can agree on the basic facts. But your explanation isn't a good one imo, on objective terms, because it does not take into account every other rider than Pogacar. Also your explanation of the time gap to Pogacar rest on the assumption that he had a bad day as well. All he said is that he didn't feel great on the last part, which is not surprising these efforts hurt, weather you're flying or not. Obejectively, that is going by the facts of the race not Pogacars subjective feeling, he did a pretty amazing TT compared to everybody else bar Vingegaard. Your explanation, as I understand it, boils down to: every rider is much worse at regeneration than Vingegaard. And this is sufficient to explain how Pogacar lost 4,75 s/km to Vingegaard, a difference so huge between first and second it is literally the second largest in Tour history and surpasses the feats of Indurain by a large margin.
I don't know the historical significance of the number, but I bet it is there: Outside of the Top 8 every rider was at least 4 km/h slower than Vingegaard.
This, you say, is objectively explainable by Pogacar being below peak? I don't understand how you can perceive the facts like that.
I think the term for which you pointed me to the clinic for was outlandish, I stand by that, without any mention of the clinic this is an outlandish performance by objective means. Do with that information what you will, but you really should try to understand, that there is more than mere fandom behind the questions that are being asked here.

Let's try, for a moment, to entertain the idea of the "cheating" you (and others) are constantly alluding to.

Do you really think Jumbo gave Vingegaard some magical potion overnight, so that he was suddenly much better than he was the day before - bearing in mind it would have to be something that did not show up in the mandatory test after the ride?

If you follow cycling closely and have an understanding of the rigerous testing regime imposed on the sport these days, you would know it's close to impossible - it would have to be some completely unknown new drug, that nobody (incl WADA) has ever heard of.

In theory it's of course possible, if Jumbo have themselves invented something groundbreaking in sports medicine that nobody else in the world knows about - but then (oddly) chose to ONLY use it for a TT instead of from the start of the race - frankly it's not a very realistic scenario.

The much more logical explanation is the one (with many individual parameters) I am giving you.