Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 2: Vitoria-Gasteiz - Donostia/San Sebastián, 208.9k

[Red Rick]

Known Belgian patriot Lance Armstrong also thinks Vignegaard should have pulled. As said multiple times here, he repeats that this small energy expenditure is well worth it in the longer term regarding team harmony and getting your most important helper 100% behind you.

Lance Armstrong, team harmony man

You still cant mention Contador without Lance getting an aneurysm

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

When has Lance ever been known for having useful opinions on anything, especially lately? Really clutching at straws here.

NOS (official Dutch broadcast) asked the same question. Wielerflits (Dutch cyclingnews site) published an article on it, just to post a counter article on it a few hours later. I personally have no issue with people thinking Vingegaard should not have helped out. But i do take issue with people stating/assuming it's "the Belgians". Because clearly it's not ok for Belgians to generalise, but it is ok for people to generalise Belgians. It's not just "the Belgians" who feel Vingegaard should/could have helped, i also don't think Rasmussen is Belgian for instance. But maybe he also isn't known for useful opinions, so basically everybody with the same opinion who isn't Belgian doesn't count, because they are idiots.

 

[wickedw]

Reacting to Skjelmose at 2.2km to go us asking Pog to counter you

He could basically just jump in the wheel, he wouldn't even need to do a big reaction. They wait for a while and thats why it becomes a more significant effort. Even if pog does counter there, then wva can jump straight into pogs wheel. Its really the only place where vingegaard could have been useful. If vingegaard just paces he won't be able to respond to a pog attack either. I think pog would rather trust his sprint in that situation.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

No GC rider in history would have made that choice.

This is the point that everyone keeps conveniently ignoring. Which Tour favourite of the past would've been expected to do this?

 

[Pirazziattacks]

NOS (official Dutch broadcast) asked the same question. Wielerflits (Dutch cyclingnews site) published an article on it, just to post a counter article on it a few hours later. I personally have no issue with people thinking Vingegaard should not have helped out. But i do take issue with people stating/assuming it's "the Belgians". Because clearly it's not ok for Belgians to generalise, but it is ok for people to generalise Belgians. It's not just "the Belgians" who feel Vingegaard should/could have helped, i also don't think Rasmussen is Belgian for instance. But maybe he also isn't known for useful opinions, so basically everybody with the same opinion who isn't Belgian doesn't count, because they are idiots.

Was this reply meant for me?

 

[Big Doopie]

Imagine Jumbo didn't bring WVA to the Tour and instead took Attila Valter. Today would be a totally calm day for them

So agree with this.

To beat Pog, Vingo needs to hope he can drop him in the high mountains, if he can. Everywhere else he (and the team) should be letting all the bonuses go to breaks etc. it is exactly what QS did at the Vuelta last year.

It also means your team works less and UAE has to expend a lot of energy in the hope of a few seconds.

I doubt Vingo will get the kind of advantage he got last year on Granon. So if he gets any advantage it cannot have to counteract a huge accumulation of bonuses by Pog. Having to play the game for WvA seems to go against this. WvA took away a couple of seconds from Pog yesterday, but better to let three completely other riders take all bonuses each day.

 

[Big Doopie]

Last year Wout saved Jumbo's entire race on the cobbles by heroically dragging Vingo to the front. He's the guy you want on your team.

…If there are cobbles…?

 

[Boehmand]

So agree with this.

To beat Pog, Vingo needs to hope he can drop him in the high mountains, if he can. Everywhere else he (and the team) should be letting all the bonuses go to breaks etc. it is exactly what QS did at the Vuelta last year.

It also means your team works less and UAE has to expend a lot of energy in the hope of a few seconds.

I doubt Vingo will get the kind of advantage he got last year on Granon. So if he gets any advantage it cannot have to counteract a huge accumulation of bonuses by Pog. Having to play the game for WvA seems to go against this. WvA took away a couple of seconds from Pog yesterday, but better to let three completely other riders take all bonuses each day.

A more important point is, that Van Aert could be gone at any moment.

Imagine his wife goes into labour tomorrow...

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Was this reply meant for me?

Yes.

 

[Martinstranger]

WVA seemed far me far to eager to close down attackers from the top and to the finish. The same goes for Kekderman and Benoot - why not leave Bilbao 5 seconds out and then wheel him in at the finish?
Now they wheeled every attack in almost immideatly and left themselves voulnarable for another attack.

Vingegaard could have helped, but the tactics was to sit at Pogacar and let the other 3 teammates fix the win - so in my opinion he should not have to help.

 

[Jagartrott]

This is the point that everyone keeps conveniently ignoring. Which Tour favourite of the past would've been expected to do this?

That's an intellectually lazy argument. I do not think anyone in the past had a master helper who could do what Van Aert can do: be a life saver on the flat AND pull hard on the last mountain (he rode Pogacar off the wheels last year!). So if you can repay such a guy by doing a one minute effort, then you do that. It will take some stress off the team, and your super domestique will be even more motivated to ride his butt off for you.

 

[Trofonios]

If it weren't for Pog Vingegaard would probably have been part of the leadout for Wout. Because Pog is such a strong, explosive and unpredictable rider it is logical that Vingegaard should stay on his wheel, if he doesn't Pog would take advantage of it. Therefore the strict orders to follow Pog. If Vingegaard's main rival were a Froome-type of rider, Vingegaard wouldn't have to be that attentive all the time and could easily switch over to leadout duty on a final like the one yesterday.

Maybe Grischa could have ordered Vingegaard to be a part of the leadout after the final bump 3k from the finish. But I guess it is also important to keep it simple for Vingegaard - just following Pog is after all a bit of a handful.

 

[RedheadDane]

Well, Van Aert has said that the critique of Vingegaard is unwaranted.

 

[Netserk]

While Tinkoff rode for Sagan in stage 2 of the 2016 Tour, it was Majka and Kreuziger who led out Sagan. Not Contador.

In 2015, Contador didn't lead out Sagan on neither Mûr-de-Bretagne nor in Rodez. Was Contador selfish?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I think people are assuming Van Aert's reaction is aimed at Vingegaard for no reason. I think his reaction after the race (banging his handlebars, throwing his bottle) and Vingegaard not helping are mainly unrelated. I do think Vingegaard could have helped out closing some attacks, but i don't think he should have done a leadout. I think Benoot is at least as much to blame as Vingegaard. To me this is not so much a Van Aert vs Vingegaard story, as it is a Van Aert within TJV story.

 

[Didinho]

If it would be Remco and Jakobsen in the same situation, he also wouldn't close gaps and lead him out in the Tour. I don't get all my countrymen in this logical thing. They would all say he's riding smart and saving energy. When he was gesturing when they didn't cooperate with him he was an angry little kid but when Wout even throws a bottle it's his good right and they want his team to lose etc. More than half of them even can't write Wout's name right, they just hear some commentators say it's a shame Vingo didn't pull for him and go with it.

I'm a Belgian (no Van Aert fan) and saying for years he shouldn't rely on his sprint so much if he's within the best that day. Just go yourself and you have 3 teammates (actually 2) to counter the attacks and you may even get yellow yesterday. He did it a couple of times and he won (like last year in yellow).

 

[Pirazziattacks]

That's an intellectually lazy argument. I do not think anyone in the past had a master helper who could do what Van Aert can do: be a life saver on the flat AND pull hard on the last mountain (he rode Pogacar off the wheels last year!). So if you can repay such a guy by doing a one minute effort, then you do that. It will take some stress off the team, and your super domestique will be even more motivated to ride his butt off for you.

Most climbing super domestiques like Landa at Sky get to occasionally do some work while maintaining a high GC position. WVA gets to go for stage wins. Neither of those arrangements entitle them to getting help from their GC leader- and if you're really a super domestique, you shouldn't need it anyway.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

If it would be Remco and Jakobsen in the same situation, he also wouldn't close gaps and lead him out in the Tour. I don't get all my countrymen in this logical thing. They would all say he's riding smart and saving energy. When he was gesturing when they didn't cooperate with him he was an angry little kid but when Wout even throws a bottle it's his good right and they want his team to lose etc. More than half of them even can't write Wout's name right, they just hear some commentators say it's a shame Vingo didn't pull for him and go with it.

I'm a Belgian (no Van Aert fan) and saying for years he shouldn't rely on his sprint so much if he's within the best that day. Just go yourself and you have 3 teammates (actually 2) to counter the attacks and you may even get yellow yesterday. He did it a couple of times and he won (like last year in yellow).

If QS eventually do take Remco to the Tour and make him work for a sprinter that would be ridiculous, and unlike Vingegaard Remco is actually a useful part of a sprint train.

 

[Didinho]

If QS eventually do take Remco to the Tour and make him work for a sprinter that would be ridiculous, and unlike Vingegaard Remco is actually a useful part of a sprint train.

Indeed. He's done it in a lot of one week stage races but not in the Giro and/or Vuelta. It's just normal to stay as fresh for the mountains, even if it's only a 500m effort.

 

[Gratemans]

I think people are assuming Van Aert's reaction is aimed at Vingegaard for no reason. I think his reaction after the race (banging his handlebars, throwing his bottle) and Vingegaard not helping are mainly unrelated. I do think Vingegaard could have helped out closing some attacks, but i don't think he should have done a leadout. I think Benoot is at least as much to blame as Vingegaard. To me this is not so much a Van Aert vs Vingegaard story, as it is a Van Aert within TJV story.

I was thinking the same thing. While I still think it's bonkers to expect Vingegaard to have done something other than keep Pogacar's wheel, I really think this was just the frustration of a sprinter having lost a big chance at a stage win. He was just pissed in general he didn't win, I don't think it was targeted at anyone in particular.

 

[Jagartrott]

You really cannot say it is 'bonkers' to expect more from Vignegaard when multiple cyclists and former cyclists do think that he could and should've done more. Also @Didinho, this is not a Belgian thing. The 'criticism' came from many sides. Plus, ad nauseam, Jakobsen is no Van Aert - why such a poor comparison (and straw man)?

 

[wickedw]

If it would be Remco and Jakobsen in the same situation, he also wouldn't close gaps and lead him out in the Tour. I don't get all my countrymen in this logical thing.

I would like to point out though that there is a massive difference between van aert and jakobsen. Wva is an actual asset to any gc team out there. Jakobsen is a liability and has no place in a gc team. I Don't think he's actually capable to get over an ant hill at this point.

 

[Didinho]

You really cannot say it is 'bonkers' to expect more from Vignegaard when multiple cyclists and former cyclists do think that he could and should've done more. Also @Didinho, this is not a Belgian thing. The 'criticism' came from many sides. Plus, ad nauseam, Jakobsen is no Van Aert - why such a poor comparison (and straw man)?

I was just referring to the GC man doing a leadout for his sprinter, not the comparison between Wout/Jakobsen as helper. All those people on social media just want what's good for their Belgian favorite rider, but if it were the other way around they would say Remco would be stupid to help there.

And yeah offcourse he could've done more but even Wout knows that's not his task. They played it not good tactically. He even got 2 guys working for him, instead of saving energy and protecting your Tour winner.
If they wanted to sprint for the win, just let Bilbao up the road and no one would ever even thought of Vingo should take a pull. And Wout did work like crazy last year, without Vingo helping him for a stage win.

 

[Oldermanish]

This depends on that WvA being an absolute monster every time he goes to the Tour... so far he doesnt seem to be in the same great form as the last couple of editions. Obviously, he is still very good.

Also... where has Laporte been in the first couple of days? I have barely seen him and just looked it up now. He has finished 152nd and 124th. Maybe I have missed if he has crashed or is sick or something, havent been able to follow the whole stages.

Anyway, when everything is not clicking the cracks become more visible.

I can't imagine trying to ride with tacks thrown on the road and the amount of crashes for the first two stages. That said, JV would be advised to rest some of the serious tow-motors when they can.

 

[Oldermanish]

Is it even reasonable to expect that Jonas should make the call to close Lafay down when Kelderman and Benoot are also there? Did Jonas know they were too spent to reel Lafay in fast enough? Jonas task was to stay on Pogs wheel, to expect Jonas deviate from that in a split second when Lafays goes is asking too much. It is Grischa's call if Jonas should be in the leadout for Wout or not, and if made it should have been done at least a couple of kilometers from the finish.

If Jonas had been on the left side of the pack and had an inkling of Lafay's move he likely would have accelerated to him and have a clearer shot at the finish. Being the leadout in an uphill, 1km sprint is an invitation to getting gapped and losing much more time due to the leaders' momentum