Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 2: Vitoria-Gasteiz - Donostia/San Sebastián, 208.9k

[EddyMazzoleni]

Yeah, imagine if he had pulled - if he'd been able to - and had crashed out. Then everyone would have talked about how stupid he had been.

It's far easier to get caught in a crash when you are at the back of the group or in the middle of it rather than when you are in the front.

 

[wickedw]

I just rewatched the final kms again. If there is any point where Vingegaard actually should have pulled for a while it's when Skjelmose attacks. This is at about the 2,2 km mark and just after Wva had to respond himself to a Pidcock attack. Vingegaard is in a fantastic position to instantly jump to the wheel as he clearly sees Skjelmosse attacking. Instead he looks and does nothing and lets Wva close the gap again.

When later Lafay attacks, his position to repsond isn't nearly as good + you actually have kelderman pacing the front of the group (though he's going to slow). But I reckon he should have actually closed that gap to skjelmose which would have been a small effort, potentially even creating an opportunity for Wva to jump himself before the sprint.

But at the same time I'm kind of amazed why so many people are surprised that he didn't do it or feel the need to defend Vingegaard as "not selfish". He's a jumbo GC rider.. Sitting in the wheel is kind of all they do?

 

[Boehmand]

A bunch of you people need to watch the finale of the stage again, before sprouting off nonsense in here.

When Lafay goes - with 1 K to go - Kelderman is pulling the group and WvA is in 2nd (Benoot no where to be seen)
Both just look at Lafay go with no reaction, when they could have closed down the move instantly, but they hesitate (Benoot says after the stage he didn't even see the move go).
Vingegaard is sitting on Pogacars wheel a few spots further back, up against the barrier on the other side of the group, with no immediate way to the front without running a severe risk.

The notion that Vingegqard should have left Pogacars wheel, and tried to box his way to the front to get WvA a short pull, because some French dude nobody ever heard off had put in a dig - is just weird - especially knowing the team had 2 full Doms in the group

 

[Lequack]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGC-m2bi8UI

 

[SafeBet]

A bunch of you people need to watch the finale of the stage again, before sprouting off nonsense in here.

When Lafay goes - with 1 K to go - Kelderman is pulling the group and WvA is in 2nd (Benoot no where to be seen)
Both just look at Lafay go with no reaction, when they could have closed down the move instantly, but they hesitate (Benoot says after the stage he didn't even see the move go).
Vingegaard is sitting on Pogacars wheel a few spots further back, up against the barrier on the other side of the group, with no immediate way to the front without running a severe risk.

The notion that Vingegqard should have left Pogacars wheel, and tried to box his way to the front to get WvA a short pull, because some French dude nobody ever heard off had put in a dig - is just weird - especially knowing the team had 2 full Doms in the group

I'm pretty sure everyone watching (and even more so riding) the Tour had noticed Lafay the day before.
It was clear the move could go all the way if nobody closed it down immediately. Whether it was Vingegaard or Van Aert job I don't know, but no reason to dismiss Lafay.

 

[VorstM]

A bunch of you people need to watch the finale of the stage again, before sprouting off nonsense in here.

When Lafay goes - with 1 K to go - Kelderman is pulling the group and WvA is in 2nd (Benoot no where to be seen)
Both just look at Lafay go with no reaction, when they could have closed down the move instantly, but they hesitate (Benoot says after the stage he didn't even see the move go).
Vingegaard is sitting on Pogacars wheel a few spots further back, up against the barrier on the other side of the group, with no immediate way to the front without running a severe risk.

The notion that Vingegqard should have left Pogacars wheel, and tried to box his way to the front to get WvA a short pull, because some French dude nobody ever heard off had put in a dig - is just weird - especially knowing the team had 2 full Doms in the group

I think the point is just as much about Vingegaards positioning as well as pulling when needed. He is not in the right position at 1km to retrieve Lafay and help Van Aert win because he is not interested in helping Van Aert win the stage. At the Skjelmose attack, he was in the right position to do something. Anyways, limited tactic by Jumbo nonetheless going for control rather than attack for two days in a row.

 

[Trofonios]

I'm pretty sure everyone watching (and even more so riding) the Tour had noticed Lafay the day before.
It was clear the move could go all the way if nobody closed it down immediately. Whether it was Vingegaard or Van Aert job I don't know, but no reason to dismiss Lafay.

Is it even reasonable to expect that Jonas should make the call to close Lafay down when Kelderman and Benoot are also there? Did Jonas know they were too spent to reel Lafay in fast enough? Jonas task was to stay on Pogs wheel, to expect Jonas deviate from that in a split second when Lafays goes is asking too much. It is Grischa's call if Jonas should be in the leadout for Wout or not, and if made it should have been done at least a couple of kilometers from the finish.

 

[Jagartrott]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGC-m2bi8UI

Good analysis. Either you go with Pogacar and try and win the stage (by playing it tactical towards the end), or you help out at the end to close the gap to Lafay so that your best helper wins a stage. Now, there was no consistency. Also down to team instructions of course, since Vignegaard seemingly is unable or unwilling to make decisions himself.

 

[RedheadDane]

Thumbtacks in road cause punctures on Tour de France 2023 stage two

Riders puncture in the Basque Country after tacks spread in the road

www.cyclingweekly.com

 

[Red Rick]

I just rewatched the final kms again. If there is any point where Vingegaard actually should have pulled for a while it's when Skjelmose attacks. This is at about the 2,2 km mark and just after Wva had to respond himself to a Pidcock attack. Vingegaard is in a fantastic position to instantly jump to the wheel as he clearly sees Skjelmosse attacking. Instead he looks and does nothing and lets Wva close the gap again.

When later Lafay attacks, his position to repsond isn't nearly as good + you actually have kelderman pacing the front of the group (though he's going to slow). But I reckon he should have actually closed that gap to skjelmose which would have been a small effort, potentially even creating an opportunity for Wva to jump himself before the sprint.

But at the same time I'm kind of amazed why so many people are surprised that he didn't do it or feel the need to defend Vingegaard as "not selfish". He's a jumbo GC rider.. Sitting in the wheel is kind of all they do?

Reacting to Skjelmose at 2.2km to go us asking Pog to counter you

 

[Boehmand]

I'm pretty sure everyone watching (and even more so riding) the Tour had noticed Lafay the day before.
It was clear the move could go all the way if nobody closed it down immediately. Whether it was Vingegaard or Van Aert job I don't know, but no reason to dismiss Lafay.

Point is he is not someone they consider a threat on GC, why it is weird to expect Vingegaard to react to him going (which he couldn't anyway, boxed in against the barrier on the other side of the group).

 

[Rob5091]

The biggest GC disappointment so far: O'Connor. What has happened with his watts?

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/be...-is-im-not-good-enough-at-the-moment-weirdly/
“I was good until the top of Jaizkibel and then I was really bad,” O’Connor told reporters after stage 2. ”The simple matter is I’m not good enough at the moment, weirdly.”

Fuelling problem?

 

[Boehmand]

I think the point is just as much about Vingegaards positioning as well as pulling when needed. He is not in the right position at 1km to retrieve Lafay and help Van Aert win because he is not interested in helping Van Aert win the stage. At the Skjelmose attack, he was in the right position to do something. Anyways, limited tactic by Jumbo nonetheless going for control rather than attack for two days in a row.

No, he is not in the right position, because his team order is to stick to Pogacar's wheel like glue, so that is what he does, and that's what puts him on the inside of the group, against the barrier, at that point in time.

The notion that he should break team orders and leave Pogacar's wheel, to start boxing his way through a bunch of guys gunning for the line, on stage 2 of the Tour, to try to do a short pull to catch a french dude that is zero threat on GC, is honestly ridiculous,

No GC rider in history would have made that choice.

 

[Jagartrott]

Known Belgian patriot Lance Armstrong also thinks Vignegaard should have pulled. As said multiple times here, he repeats that this small energy expenditure is well worth it in the longer term regarding team harmony and getting your most important helper 100% behind you.

 

[RedheadDane]

Known Belgian patriot Lance Armstrong also thinks Vignegaard should have pulled. As said multiple times here, he repeats that this small energy expenditure is well worth it in the longer term regarding team harmony and getting your most important helper 100% behind you.

Is Armstrong really a guy whose opinion you think should matter?

But apart from the fact that I really don't see how the defending Tour Champion should be under any obligations to pull for a teammate, I also just think it was great Lafay stayed away.

 

[Rob5091]

While folks here are discussing the finer points of sprint lead-outs, what the heck were Bjerg and Laengen up to? Laengen was dropped after doing his stint on the front, then hey presto, simsalabim, he's back on the front! Bjerg seemed to be on a one man mission to drop the peloton and Trentin had to go and tell him to knock it off, not once, but at least twice! After Grossschartner's lead out/one man attack on stage 1, UAE are providing good value for your viewing enjoyment.

 

[RedheadDane]

While folks here are discussing the finer points of sprint lead-outs, what the heck were Bjerg and Laengen up to?

Being too *** strong?
This morning, they were probably only allowed to have one cup of coffee each.

 

[Rob5091]

Coffee? I'm guessing it's only one bowl of the Pogi Porridge ("The Breakfast of Champions!")

 

[GroupDK]

Vingegaard got one goal and that's GC and monitor Pogacar.
Mindbending if a strongteam like Jumbo that people think are so strong' don't have other riders to lead out Van Aert (1.90cm 80kg) and expects that a small sub60kg mountain rider and current champ (1) like Jonas shall also do sprint lead-out and monitor both Poagacar explosions in finals for bonus-seconds and also monitor everybody else and counter on everybody else and haul them in, c'mon.

Van Aert already got one present from Jonas yesterday, when he clearly didn't want to push with Poagacar when these two were alone after the hill, and Jonas tried to save the stage for Van Aert.
and last year he also gifted a stage to Van Aert and clearly tone down his TTpace.

Jonas shall not counter everybody else and haul them in on the last km on a flat finish, sub 60kg 1.74cm and don't have the explosive nature, like fx Pogacar and bigger riders.
His main focus GC and monitoring Pogacar.. other Jumbo riders needs to step up...

 

[RedheadDane]

Coffee? I'm guessing it's only one bowl of the Pogi Porridge ("The Breakfast of Champions!")

Isn't it Van Aert who eats some sort of absolutely disgusting-sounding porridge?

 

[Jagartrott]

Is Armstrong really a guy whose opinion you think should matter?

But apart from the fact that I really don't see how the defending Tour Champion should be under any obligations to pull for a teammate, I also just think it was great Lafay stayed away.

Because he's been there, and has often been invoked as the epitome of 'selfish' - but apparently even he thinks Vignegaard should have done that one pull. What's with the dogmatic 'defending Tour champion under no obligations' argument? It's paper-thin. As a team leader, you are also responsible to help your team function at 100%. Vignegaard had a very cheap opportunity to help Van Aert, but he didn't do it. Not smart.

 

[RedheadDane]

Because he's been there, and has often been invoked as the epitome of 'selfish' - but apparently even he thinks Vignegaard should have done that one pull.

A guy who - as far as I rememember - never did a pull for a teammate, suddenly thinks another guy should have done a pull...

As a team leader, you are also responsible to help your team function at 100%.

There are other ways to do that.

 

[Rob5091]

Isn't it Van Aert who eats some sort of absolutely disgusting-sounding porridge?

I think it was Adam Blythe (Eurosport) who asked Pogacar what he had to eat for breakfast and porridge was one of the items.

 

[RedheadDane]

I think it was Adam Blythe (Eurosport) who asked Pogacar what he had to eat for breakfast and porridge was one of the items.

I think a lot of riders eat porridge. Apparently Van Aert mixes eggs in...

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Known Belgian patriot Lance Armstrong also thinks Vignegaard should have pulled. As said multiple times here, he repeats that this small energy expenditure is well worth it in the longer term regarding team harmony and getting your most important helper 100% behind you.

When has Lance ever been known for having useful opinions on anything, especially lately? Really clutching at straws here.