Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 2: Vitoria-Gasteiz - Donostia/San Sebastián, 208.9k

[ManicJack]

How many stage wins and a GC win last year? Come on.

The operative words there are "last year". Anyhow, on to tomorrow.

 

[houtdffan]

Tacks in the road spark mass punctures in finale of Tour de France stage 2

Tom Pidcock finishes fourth in San Sebastian despite slow puncture

www.cyclingnews.com

With the issue of tacks on the road today, any chance the UCI neutralizes the stage, like they did the tack stage from 2012?

 

[gregrowlerson]

Nah - If you studied the profiles of the first two stages MVDP was unlikely to make the finish while VWA had some chance - Which is fairly much what has happened.

I thought mvdp was a decent chance on stage 2. I should have listened to red rick rather than vwipe.

 

[Nick2413]

Tacks in the road spark mass punctures in finale of Tour de France stage 2

Tom Pidcock finishes fourth in San Sebastian despite slow puncture

www.cyclingnews.com

With the issue of tacks on the road today, any chance the UCI neutralizes the stage, like they did the tack stage from 2012?

No idea but unfortunately the more they post about it the more likely it is to happen again.

 

[Rob5091]

Does the "Tack Attack!" explain the sprint and Lafay's win? Does Lafay's win deserve an asterisk? ("won against many with tacks in tyres"). Did WvA have a slow puncture?

 

[gregrowlerson]

Ergernis bij José De Cauwer: "Na alles wat Wout van Aert voor Jumbo-Visma betekend heeft..." | sporza

Niet alleen Wout van Aert heeft gevloekt na de tweede etappe in de Tour de France, ook in onze commentaarcabine kwam de stoom uit de oren. José De Cauwer stelde vast hoe Jumbo-Visma een sprint met de Belgische aas uit de handen liet glippen en stelt zich veel vragen bij de (beperkte) rol van...

sporza.be

You guys should put this page in a translator. It's the best thing you'll read all month, trust me.

'King Van Aert'....

I am definitely going to have to quit my day job now to ever catch up with all of this, but thanks anyway

 

[fbjim]

You know the best thing about Lafay's attack? He didn't look back. Not once.

 

[gunara]

I'm always on the other side of the GC duel, Vingegard is just not very appealing as a racer. But I can't help sympathizing with him a lot more after this, so little respect - from a group of people, wish it's not from the whole country - for a defending champion and a number one favorite. Not only about how he should function on that one stage, but also about what he has achieved and his rank within the team. All these putting down on him is so unnecessary I feel. It's not easy to be in a team with a Belgian star.

 

[Rackham]

I'm always on the other side of the GC duel, Vingegard is just not very appealing as a racer. But I can't help sympathizing with him a lot more after this, so little respect - from a group of people, wish it's not from the whole country - for a defending champion and a number one favorite. Not only about how he should function on that one stage, but also about what he has achieved and his rank within the team. All these putting down on him is so unnecessary I feel. It's not easy to be in a team with a Belgian star.

Team Jumbo Visma are pretty heavily invested in the whole "win together" mantra. Dutch total football has been cited as the inspiration by Plugge.

I mean I've been here myself with a similar conversation of sorts in 2021 & 2022 regarding Primož Roglič getting screwed by team decisions to back someone else at crucial moments (namely Van Aert on stage 3 in 2021 & stage 4 last year, but also Vingegaard himself last year on the cobbled stage when Niermann sacrificed Rogla entirely to favor Vinge, even 'before' the hay bale incident).

This stuff needs to be sorted out in the team bus better, along with a frank conversation about potential variables. This isn't news anymore, i.e. the deal at Jumbo in the Tour is always "WvA gets to grab stages & jerseys, then he does domestique work in the mountains".

 

[Rackham]

Exactly. The idea that Mr. Minutes is the one who is going to make the difference in a flat sprint with Wout having two heavyweight leadouts, is a bit silly on its own. But it just shows all that matters to the WVA leaning media is that Vingegaard succumbs to King WVA. Doesn’t really matter that much if it makes a difference or not.

Vingegaard knows how to do a leadout. He did it in the Dauphiné last month for Laporte, he's always been good at it.

The issue is the tactical intransigence of the team car to deviate from a plan, even when events on the road dictate a more nuanced 'flexible' approach.

I also see a lot of disrespect for Wout van Aert in some replies but from a Vingegaard perspective people should probably remember Van Aert pretty much won him the Tour on the cobbled stage last year when pulled him to the line after his chain drop panic (jumping on his teammates bikes etc.). Without Van Aert, Vinge finishes 3 minutes down with Roglič.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Good to see that half the people on here have already lost their minds by stage 2. Apparently pure climber Vingegaard should be trying to copy former track rider and Paris-Roubaix top 10 finisher Wiggo's attempts to rub it in everyone's faces by leading out his sprinter when the race was already won. Quality stuff, this might actually be a lower quality discussion than you'll find in the Belgian cycling media.

Vingegaard's done exactly what he should do so far, which is follow Pogacar's wheel. I'm not exactly sure why anyone on here thinks he should be different from pretty much every other top tier Tour contenders in the recent history of the sport in being expected to work for a sprinter. Even splitting the priorities of more than a couple of domestiques would have been too much of a sacrifice for most. WVA gets a ton of support compared with what Sagan got at Saxo Bank, and you'd be insane to argue that WVA is more marketable than Sagan was then.

 

[red_flanders]

You know the best thing about Lafay's attack? He didn't look back. Not once.

And he was putting out some serious watts!

 

[red_flanders]

The operative words there are "last year". Anyhow, on to tomorrow.

Last year people were saying the same thing you seem to be now. They were wrong. You might not be. But it’s already proven to work for this team once. Can’t dismiss that they might dominate going for both again, it’s stage 2.

 

[Volderke]

The winner of the Tour de France ...the only bike race that most people watch

next

Again, some here don’t seem to acknowledge that Jumbo won the tour last year. Vingegaard alone wouldn’t have won. Wva was quintessential in the win.

People here are a bit like saying you only need the goalscorer to win the world championship soccer. You don’t need Messi, Iniesta, Maldini, Buffon, … the guys that clean up the mess when the team is in trouble.

I say this once more: Wva isn’t just a rider. Not in terms of being interchangeable for the team to win the tour, and not in the eyes of the sponsor, who is leaving cycling just because they reached all their goals in the sport AND they reached the audience they were looking to reach, through WvA. He is incontournable within the team and at the same time he doesn’t get the same respect on this forum.

 

[Oldermanish]

Does anyone actually believe Vingegaard didn't cooperate with Pogacar because he wanted to give Wva a chance? I'm sure that's what he was doing yesterday as well. What a load of bs

There is no reason whatsover that he should help Pogacar, with or without the influence of Mr. VanAert. Unless it's an uphill effort and he's confident the point of cooperating to a sprint finish doesn't exist. Why pose a question that isn't in their plan; only the minds of butthurt Belgian fans?

 

[IndianCyclist]

Jonas is solely focused on Pogacar. That would also be the instruction in the pre-race meeting and also during the race which is the correct way to do. That is what a rider who wants to win the TDF will do, follow his opponents every move. Because one move not followed and it will become irretrievable as Pogi himself found out last time. Over the top of jaizkibel, Pogi was already gone if Jonas had not followed. We also donot know how good Jonas is with distraction/changed instruction etc. What I saw from what the JV team did, with the puncture bike changeover, was a nightmare. What I also saw in the last 2 stages is the inability/reluctance of WVA to attack himself and wait for the sprint. The team also does not appear to have advised him about that. We already know how many stages/races that Valverde lot due to this tactic.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Again, some here don’t seem to acknowledge that Jumbo won the tour last year. Vingegaard alone wouldn’t have won. Wva was quintessential in the win.

People here are a bit like saying you only need the goalscorer to win the world championship soccer. You don’t need Messi, Iniesta, Maldini, Buffon, … the guys that clean up the mess when the team is in trouble.

I say this once more: Wva isn’t just a rider. Not in terms of being interchangeable for the team to win the tour, and not in the eyes of the sponsor, who is leaving cycling just because they reached all their goals in the sport AND they reached the audience they were looking to reach, through WvA. He is incontournable within the team and at the same time he doesn’t get the same respect on this forum.

"WVA isn't just a rider"
What is he then? He's not some sort of mythical figure like Pantani or Merckx, and he's not a global sporting superstar like Messi, Ronaldo, Jordan, Lebron, Tendulkar, Williams, Federer etc.

 

[DNP-Old]

Who the hell is Tendulkar?

 

[Volderke]

"WVA isn't just a rider"
What is he then? He's not some sort of mythical figure like Pantani or Merckx, and he's not a global sporting superstar like Messi, Ronaldo, Jordan, Lebron, Tendulkar, Williams, Federer etc.

He’s not just a rider = he’s not Olav Kooij (like someone mentioned Kooij to make an analogy, and he’s not just another domesticate). And yes, within cycling, he’s in the top 5 of big names, like it or not.

 

[bNator]

Vingegaard knows how to do a leadout. He did it in the Dauphiné last month for Laporte, he's always been good at it.

The issue is the tactical intransigence of the team car to deviate from a plan, even when events on the road dictate a more nuanced 'flexible' approach.

I also see a lot of disrespect for Wout van Aert in some replies but from a Vingegaard perspective people should probably remember Van Aert pretty much won him the Tour on the cobbled stage last year when pulled him to the line after his chain drop panic (jumping on his teammates bikes etc.). Without Van Aert, Vinge finishes 3 minutes down with Roglič.

Weren’t you the one telling me a couple of posts back everyone does leadouts for Laporte after I mentioned he was doing them in Dauphine?

As per the bold part. Vinge was ahead of Roglic when Wout waited for them. I’m not sure by how much, maybe a minute? The gap would have been bigger but not more than a minute, a minute and a half IMO…

And finally, everyone in the squad have “won him the Tour”. Some contributed more some less. What should he do now - go kiss their butts for eternity? They are all proffesionals, getting paid to do their jobs. He is paid to win it and Wout is paid to help him do that. Yesterday it was Vinge’s job to stay out of trouble and not get dropped by Pog. He did it well… And I don’t even like the guy, but this is all getting ridiculous.

 

[Jagartrott]

Good to see that half the people on here have already lost their minds by stage 2. Apparently pure climber Vingegaard should be trying to copy former track rider and Paris-Roubaix top 10 finisher Wiggo's attempts to rub it in everyone's faces by leading out his sprinter when the race was already won. Quality stuff, this might actually be a lower quality discussion than you'll find in the Belgian cycling media.

Vingegaard's done exactly what he should do so far, which is follow Pogacar's wheel. I'm not exactly sure why anyone on here thinks he should be different from pretty much every other top tier Tour contenders in the recent history of the sport in being expected to work for a sprinter. Even splitting the priorities of more than a couple of domestiques would have been too much of a sacrifice for most. WVA gets a ton of support compared with what Sagan got at Saxo Bank, and you'd be insane to argue that WVA is more marketable than Sagan was then.

"Pure climber" Vignegaard 'd better get 5 minutes advantage in the mountains then, as he would've been of no use chasing P-R winner Lafay. Low quality discussion you say?

 

[Salvarani]

Team Jumbo Visma are pretty heavily invested in the whole "win together" mantra. Dutch total football has been cited as the inspiration by Plugge.

I mean I've been here myself with a similar conversation of sorts in 2021 & 2022 regarding Primož Roglič getting screwed by team decisions to back someone else at crucial moments (namely Van Aert on stage 3 in 2021 & stage 4 last year, but also Vingegaard himself last year on the cobbled stage when Niermann sacrificed Rogla entirely to favor Vinge, even 'before' the hay bale incident).

This stuff needs to be sorted out in the team bus better, along with a frank conversation about potential variables. This isn't news anymore, i.e. the deal at Jumbo in the Tour is always "WvA gets to grab stages & jerseys, then he does domestique work in the mountains".

This depends on that WvA being an absolute monster every time he goes to the Tour... so far he doesnt seem to be in the same great form as the last couple of editions. Obviously, he is still very good.

Also... where has Laporte been in the first couple of days? I have barely seen him and just looked it up now. He has finished 152nd and 124th. Maybe I have missed if he has crashed or is sick or something, havent been able to follow the whole stages.

Anyway, when everything is not clicking the cracks become more visible.

 

[Rackham]

Weren’t you the one telling me a couple of posts back everyone does leadouts for Laporte after I mentioned he was doing them in Dauphine?

As per the bold part. Vinge was ahead of Roglic when Wout waited for them. I’m not sure by how much, maybe a minute? The gap would have been bigger but not more than a minute, a minute and a half IMO…

And finally, everyone in the squad have “won him the Tour”. Some contributed more some less. What should he do now - go kiss their butts for eternity? They are all proffesionals, getting paid to do their jobs. He is paid to win it and Wout is paid to help him do that. Yesterday it was Vinge’s job to stay out of trouble and not get dropped by Pog. He did it well… And I don’t even like the guy, but this is all getting ridiculous.

On the cobbled stage, Rog was the best placed GC Jumbo rider on the road after Vingegaard had his mechanical (& panic attack). He was ahead & deserved more support than he got (the hay bale incident happened later when he only had Laporte with him).

Now what we're seeing is the same sort of B.S. which Roglič endured (without a fuss because he's a trooper) sort of blow up now in this Tour, with different personalities (for example Vingegaard's post-race interview yesterday was entirely tone deaf, albeit funny for neutrals who just want some drama). I think it's also worth reminding people that in terms of overall GC placing before the cobbled stage in last year's Tour, Rog was only one second behind Vingegaard. He lost everything that day & it's amazing that Pog took the bait on Granon, considering the time deficit.

And Wout van Aert is pretty much paid to win stages in the Tour. Do you think he has a contract which says "domestique duties for Vingegaard"? No. It's no use remonstrating about who does what in the team or what a rider's duties should be, i.e. it's way too late for that now. Everyone knows what WvA will do because that's what he's been doing over the past 4 TdF editions.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Who the hell is Tendulkar?

He's only a couple of billion people plus up on WVA in terms of name recognition.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

"Pure climber" Vignegaard 'd better get 5 minutes advantage in the mountains then, as he would've been of no use chasing P-R winner Lafay. Low quality discussion you say?

zzzzz