Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 20: Belfort - Le Markstein, 133.5k

[tobydawq]

Rogla did attack in the Giro when he was good, but after his crash he clearly couldn't (as he was dropped on Bondone). Pogi was evidently far stronger than that between Tourmalet and Domancy.

So I think it's nonsensical to say that Rogla chose not to attack when he could, while it was impossible for Pogi to dare more.

I think Pog did as well as possible. There is a window where his anaerobic superiority can give him an advantage over Vingegaard. You saw on the Joux Plane dad when that window was exceeded, Vingegaard would get back.

Thinking about the Pyrenean stages last year (and in 2020 and 2021, and De Ronde and Strade and E3 and Vuelta 2019 and Il Lombardia and Amstel, lol), calling him out for not attacking is just really lame.

 

[Martinstranger]

You know very well how race situations and tactics were played out. It was never on Pogacar to make the race hard and go long this year, and when it was, he was just completely empty on that one day.

It was never Vingegaard to make the race about short range uphill sprints and bonus seconds
Then we could all just tune in as a sprinter-stage with 5-10 k's to go (maybe a bit far to go - but I think you get the meaning).

Sorry - I like them both but can also accept they are different in more ways. I really don't get why the one who tried long range attacks become the boring rider, just because he is smart enough to know what he is doing and aware of his opponents weaknesses. I'm pretty sure Pogacar knows where his strenghts is and is trying to use them. He gets a lot of stage wins on that account and that counts for a lot.

Pogacar rode to his strengths and try to hide his weaknesses, but they caught up to him mainly to due to his prep.

Maybe or maybe Jumbo-Visma have cracked the code as they have said all along and Pogacar is weaker when it comes to third week and the long, hard, warm stages.

Hope he will come back next year and prove them wrong. From the latest 3 Tours it seems they are right.
Maybe the Tour have to drop a really killer stage with those long mountains in high altitude to give Pogacar a little advantage.

Yesterday, all he wanted was the stage as he's this far behind. Vingegaard also wanted to win the stage, but was somehow still too scared of Pogacar to even try once and therefore just conceded the stage which made for a boring, tactical race.

He said he didn't have the legs to do a difference on that short Platzer-Wasel. Why should he risk an attack, just to get a counterattack and be left embarrased behind the day before Paris.

I really don't get it. I would have done the same, if I didn't believe I could leave Pogacar behind. I know it seems boring to us viewers, but tactially I think it was the right decision and I respect that.

We gotta love, that we have 2 exceptional riders who hopefully can and will compete for years to come. If we're lucky there will come 1 or 2 riders more, who will join in on the fun and maybe change some of the dynamics in the race.


Sorry it was your post I quoted - it was not that particular one but more an overall observation about the differences. I get why people love the outgoing Pogacar who is very good at entertaining and even does backflips on a rest day - but I'm surprised that transfers to Vingegaard being boring.

 

[Andy schleck]

Vingegaard was the best rider this year, but also the most boring. This stage made that clear again

You already forgot stage 5, stage 6 and the TT.

 

[Volderke]

He said he didn't have the legs to do a difference on that short Platzer-Wasel.

My reply is only related to this particular part of your post, I agree with all other things you wrote.

But the Platzerwasel-Breitfirst isn't short nor easy.

Col du Breitfirst par Platzerwasel | Strava Ride Segment in Sondernach, France

www.strava.com

I have tried to explain this in the beginning of this topic but it seems my message doesn't get through:

Petit Ballon is a 27 minute effort, 9.5K at 7.9% average.
Platzerwasel - Breitfirst is a 25.5 minute effort, 10.5K at 6.5% average.

Total effort is around 1:02 for 29K (20K of climbing), with 53 minutes of climbing and 9 minutes of descending in between.

For comparison, what some people see as a very hard succession of climbs in the last decade of the Tour:
Col de Romme (2021) is a 28 minute effort, 10K at 7.8% average (including the false flat at the top)
Col de la Colombiere (2021) is a 22 minute effort, 7.3K at 8.8% average

total effort is around 56 minutes for 22K (17.3K of climbing), with 51 minutes of climbing and 5 minutes of descending in between.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Romme is quite a bit harder than Petit Ballon and there's almost no rest between Romme-Colombiere. I think its a very good comparison, but I do think Romme-Colombiere is much harder tbf and its not that close.

Still, this combo could definitely have created way, way, way bigger gaps than it did. But the GC was so that it didn't really make sense for anyone to just put the hammer down early on Petit Ballon. Also, there was headwind.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

You already forgot stage 5, stage 6 and the TT.

Since when does winning a TT by a large distance make you less boring, did you guys also find Evenepoel more interesting after Stage 1 of this Giro? Is Indurain less boring because he won time trials? I must say, Wiggins at the 2012 Tour wasn‘t boring because of his time trials. Or is it about cornering fast on a TT bike?
Yes, it‘s absurd and unfair to call Vingegaard boring after Stage 6, although that was probably just the plan of the team and I too find Vingegaard‘s riding style interesting sometimes, but what does the TT have to do with that?

 

[Andy schleck]

Since when does winning a TT by a large distance make you less boring, did you guys also find Evenepoel more interesting after Stage 1 of this Giro? Is Indurain less boring because he won time trials? I must say, Wiggins at the 2012 Tour wasn‘t boring because of his time trials. Or is it about cornering fast on a TT bike?
Yes, it‘s absurd and unfair to call Vingegaard boring after Stage 6, although that was probably just the plan of the team and I too find Vingegaard‘s riding style interesting sometimes, but what does the TT have to do with that?

I must assume that you don't like seeing TTs. It was a awesome TT by him, awesome to see.
I like what he did on stage 5, he attacked far from the finish. He attacked on tourmalet, at 60 km from the finish, even in la loze he did a entertaining last 5 kms. I don't know what you would expect more from him. He can't attack everyday.

I don't understand this ideia that vingegaard is in general a boring rider. He is attacking since gran camino this season.

 

[theyoungest]

I must assume that you don't like seeing TTs. It was a awesome TT by him, awesome to see.
I like what he did on stage 5, he attacked far from the finish. He attacked on tourmalet, at 60 km from the finish, even in la loze he did a entertaining last 5 kms. I don't know what you would expect more from him. He can't attack everyday.

I don't understand this ideia that vingegaard is in general a boring rider. He is attacking since gran camino this season.

Pogacar can sit on Vingegaard's wheel for an entire stage, sprint away from him in the final and he'll be seen as the attacking rider (stage 6). That's just what perception does.

 

[Andy schleck]

Pogacar can sit on Vingegaard's wheel for an entire stage, sprint away from him in the final and he'll be seen as the attacking rider (stage 6). That's just what perception does.

He was always attacking in the last Km, but the boring rider in this tour is vingegaard.

 

[Martinstranger]

My reply is only related to this particular part of your post, I agree with all other things you wrote.

But the Platzerwasel-Breitfirst isn't short nor easy.

Col du Breitfirst par Platzerwasel | Strava Ride Segment in Sondernach, France

www.strava.com

I have tried to explain this in the beginning of this topic but it seems my message doesn't get through:

Petit Ballon is a 27 minute effort, 9.5K at 7.9% average.
Platzerwasel - Breitfirst is a 25.5 minute effort, 10.5K at 6.5% average.

Total effort is around 1:02 for 29K (20K of climbing), with 53 minutes of climbing and 9 minutes of descending in between.

For comparison, what some people see as a very hard succession of climbs in the last decade of the Tour:
Col de Romme (2021) is a 28 minute effort, 10K at 7.8% average (including the false flat at the top)
Col de la Colombiere (2021) is a 22 minute effort, 7.3K at 8.8% average

total effort is around 56 minutes for 22K (17.3K of climbing), with 51 minutes of climbing and 5 minutes of descending in between.

I get your point but it is still nothing like Loze,/Ventoux in hight where he has been far superior. He didn't need any time and if he felt the legs were not super - then i really get why he didn't attack. The risk for a counterattack where high and why loose time on the last stage before Paris. That would just be embarrasing.

If he needed time on that stage, I'm sure he would have attacked to see if Pogacar could be distanced.

 

[Izzyeviel]

calling Jumbo boring is like saying Mozart only knows 2 chords