Tour de France Tour de France 2024, Stage 7: Nuits-Saint-Georges > Gevrey-Chambertin, 25.3 km (ITT)

[Libertine Seguros]

So this all the time? The world champion in the individual time trail discipline wins the stage, the field is comprised of national champions, grand tour winners and previous stage and overall TDF winners ( multiple) and the field is inferior because Filippo Ganna stayed home? The parity in pro bike racing is on high in history!! There are dozens of riders capable of winning on any given day. The talent, power and skills have never been this deep in the existence of racing. Today's times were outstanding on any level, but judging them relatively makes the accomplishment that much more profound.. This was not a stand alone scheduled ITT, instead it's a TT after racing a week through the mountains!! I know every party needs a wet blanket..
The field is outstanding, racing accordingly. The quality of racers and equipment, never better. Wool jerseys, ham sandwiches, down tube shifters, no helmet, hairnet, 18mm tires glued on..all unable to be compared to modern racing.. Apples and oranges.. Even the gearing thought of as essential and effective @10 years ago, currently makes no sense.
Your description of the TT being " marginalized " would surely be disputed by riders who have lost major gran titles because of a TT that lost them the race..
Your statement " who is even there? " floors me.. Who is not there? This is as good as it gets!!!!

Always the same riders in the same teams winning every race, and having all of the talent concentrated into the same 3-4 teams, but not having sufficient options for secondary prizes or stages that can be fought over by the remainder other than sprinters makes for a very limited spectacle, for me. Having all the GC contenders concentrated into the same 3-4 teams means that all of those teams have a vested interest in a controlled race and aren't going to be experimenting because they don't want to lose any of the weapons at their disposal, so we just have to hope that if we wait long enough, one of them is on a good enough day and puts their foot down early enough to blow things up fully and get rid of some of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th in commands in their team that 10-15 years ago would have been leaders at other teams and fighting against each other rather than riding fourth in command. We used to have one dominant team paying for superdoms and crushing the race, and those teams were often deeply unpopular with large parts of the fanbase. Now we just have multiple teams strong enough to completely annul the race and render everybody else an irrelevance to their private competition.

Again: some people like to watch a Barcelona-Real Madrid 0-0 over an Espanyol-Getafe 3-3 because they're seeing better quality players and a higher standard of play. Some people like to watch an Espanyol-Getafe 3-3 over a Barcelona-Real Madrid 0-0 because they're getting more spectacle even if there are more mistakes and errors. I'm very much in the latter group.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Always the same riders in the same teams winning every race, and having all of the talent concentrated into the same 3-4 teams, but not having sufficient options for secondary prizes or stages that can be fought over by the remainder other than sprinters makes for a very limited spectacle, for me. Having all the GC contenders concentrated into the same 3-4 teams means that all of those teams have a vested interest in a controlled race and aren't going to be experimenting because they don't want to lose any of the weapons at their disposal, so we just have to hope that if we wait long enough, one of them is on a good enough day and puts their foot down early enough to blow things up fully and get rid of some of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th in commands in their team that 10-15 years ago would have been leaders at other teams and fighting against each other rather than riding fourth in command. We used to have one dominant team paying for superdoms and crushing the race, and those teams were often deeply unpopular with large parts of the fanbase. Now we just have multiple teams strong enough to completely annul the race and render everybody else an irrelevance to their private competition.

Again: some people like to watch a Barcelona-Real Madrid 0-0 over an Espanyol-Getafe 3-3 because they're seeing better quality players and a higher standard of play. Some people like to watch an Espanyol-Getafe 3-3 over a Barcelona-Real Madrid 0-0 because they're getting more spectacle even if there are more mistakes and errors. I'm very much in the latter group.

I get what you're saying, but professional sports need big stars, the bigger the better.

 

[Netserk]

Stages for the baroudeur are eroded to nil. TT specialists get nothing to play with, so the benefit of being that kind of rider has eroded away to the point where there aren't really any of them, they all either convert to sprinter/leadout types or they learn to climb well enough to become GC men. We're headed for a future of two types of stage: flat stage for sprinter, stage with hills or mountains for GC rider, and ne'er the twain shall meet.

We have a gravel stage on Sunday, had cobbles two years ago. Only 4 (flat) bunch sprint victories in 2022.

Has it really worsened over the past decade?

 

[yaf]

Pogacar's pacing plan a bit off I think, small margins but he was 15th fastest in the final split. Slower than precocious Belgian talent and Tre Valli Varesine specialst Ilan Van Wilder, Adam Yates, Vlasov.

Roglic fastest descent of the GC, only Kung and Oliveira faster.

Kévin Vauquelin is a serious guy, 6th and he's on Arkea, hopefully he stays there for variety.

Idk but pogi was the only one i saw sprinting full gas on the rollers before the tt began and he did the same thing in the giro tt. Doesn't that affect him for the tt?

 

[danielovichdk2]

Idk but pogi was the only one i saw sprinting full gas on the rollers before the tt began and he did the same thing in the giro tt. Doesn't that affect him for the tt?

No. You need to open up the whole body to perform optimal. Some do it with hour long warm up, others on 30min.

Some people open up differently by putting in lots of power for a period. Others not so much. That's why you hear the terms diesel and gasoline engine sometimes.

 

[Escarabajo]

People so silly saying in social media that the Tour is over. LOL. Tour was over before it started!!!

Seriously, In one stage in the mountains all differences can be wiped out.

Having said that, Pocagar continues to be number 1 favorite. Remco's getting closer in a TT changes absolutely nothing.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I get what you're saying, but professional sports need big stars, the bigger the better.

It depends really. Total income might go up, but when it's all concentrated on the few, it doesn't trickle down, and since cycling is a pack sport, it's more readily obvious when the income is all bogarted by those at the top. I mean, in one post a while back I went over how the amount of money brought in by the EPL is huge, the profits are colossal... but there is a staggeringly long list of teams who have got into financial black holes and some - including teams currently still in said league - have been through multiple insolvencies and administrations because the cost of entry (and continued participation) is so eye-watering that they simply can't afford not to be there, even if being there condemns themselves to eternal pauper status.

Stars who win enough to become established names beyond the niche confines of the sport are good. Tightly controlled races with a very small range of predictable outcomes where 80% of the competitors are rendered total irrelevances are bad for the spectacle, not good.

 

[Unchained]

Always the same riders in the same teams winning every race, and having all of the talent concentrated into the same 3-4 teams, but not having sufficient options for secondary prizes or stages that can be fought over by the remainder other than sprinters makes for a very limited spectacle, for me. Having all the GC contenders concentrated into the same 3-4 teams means that all of those teams have a vested interest in a controlled race and aren't going to be experimenting because they don't want to lose any of the weapons at their disposal, so we just have to hope that if we wait long enough, one of them is on a good enough day and puts their foot down early enough to blow things up fully and get rid of some of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th in commands in their team that 10-15 years ago would have been leaders at other teams and fighting against each other rather than riding fourth in command.

Again: some people like to watch a Barcelona-Real Madrid 0-0 over an Espanyol-Getafe 3-3 because they're seeing better quality players and a higher standard of play. Some people like to watch an Espanyol-Getafe 3-3 over a Barcelona-Real Madrid 0-0 because they're getting more spectacle even if there are more mistakes and errors. I'm very much in the latter group.

Please more hockey references!!
Mark these words..colored water bottles and glucose monitor feedback. If you are underwhelmed by elite competition and have a jaded view that the winners are the highest paid. I accept that. But soon as many many pro riders are predicting, science will step up a few levels all at once, when a team car and van will monitor the amount of usable calories inside the riders blood and will hand up nutrition accordingly. Feedback from rider will tell him, bus and team car that he ( she) can back down @ watts and still win.
I hardly see an obvious or clear winner to this years TDF..seeing the fate of all the top riders currently flying, all have had appointments w the pavement, and if you watch Pogacar's near miss, he is a zig or zag away from being in an ambulance!! His multiple mistakes make him anything but a sure thing.
Jorgenson for example 7th today, 9th overall despite falling off his bike. This season has people falling off their bike Christoff, fell off his bike and on to a podium. I personally find it premature to call it for the big teams, except no surprises, that's just me. Seeing who has won in the first week, great race..don't agree about the ho-hum..

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Please more hockey references!!
Mark these words..colored water bottles and glucose monitor feedback. If you are underwhelmed by elite competition and have a jaded view that the winners are the highest paid. I accept that. But soon as many many pro riders are predicting, science will step up a few levels all at once, when a team car and van will monitor the amount of usable calories inside the riders blood and will hand up nutrition accordingly. Feedback from rider will tell him, bus and team car that he ( she) can back down @ watts and still win.
I hardly see an obvious or clear winner to this years TDF..seeing the fate of all the top riders currently flying, all have had appointments w the pavement, and if you watch Pogacar's near miss, he is a zig or zag away from being in an ambulance!! His multiple mistakes make him anything but a sure thing.
Jorgenson for example 7th today, 9th overall despite falling off his bike. This season has people falling off their bike Christoff, fell off his bike and on to a podium. I personally find it premature to call it for the big teams, except no surprises, that's just me. Seeing who has won in the first week, great race..don't agree about the ho-hum..

I see a race where 80% of the combatants are total irrelevances. If you don't ride for one of four teams, you don't matter. And while some of the riders may be likable, the teams on the other hand are not. Some kind of distribution of the elite talent across the whole péloton so that they would race against each other, not be deployed on behalf of the even-more-elite talent to dispel any riff-raff with ideas above their stations, would be nice, you know?

The 2009 Tour was a garbage race because we had a neutered parcours, a few people who could have broken up the hegemony of the top couple of teams (Evans, Menchov, Sastre), were way undercooked, and all of the relevant talent was concentrated into the same 2-3 teams that just cancelled each other out all race. The spectacle was absolute trash and almost the only thing people remember about the race now is the off-bike drama. ASO made it easy for that outcome to manifest, of course, and Armstrong brought his own media circus, but the on bike spectacle there is the example of where having elite talent all clustered in the same teams doesn't benefit racing in any way, shape or form.

 

[yaf]

No. You need to open up the whole body to perform optimal. Some do it with hour long warm up, others on 30min.

Some people open up differently by putting in lots of power for a period. Others not so much. That's why you hear the terms diesel and gasoline engine sometimes.

I heard that a few times but for ex on galibier stage he didn't lose a single second on remco,jonas,primoz rodriguez working together but he was the one who made the attack on the climb. Today was the opposite as he was fading towards the end. Even though tts have some intensity warmups i find it hard to perform optimaly for a 30 minute test as sprinting full gas will already make the legs heavy

 

[RobertCrawley]

Idk but pogi was the only one i saw sprinting full gas on the rollers before the tt began and he did the same thing in the giro tt. Doesn't that affect him for the tt?

These guys aren't like you and me. That warm up effort is nominal compared to their efforts on the parcours.

 

[Unchained]

I see a race where 80% of the combatants are total irrelevances. If you don't ride for one of four teams, you don't matter. And while some of the riders may be likable, the teams on the other hand are not. Some kind of distribution of the elite talent across the whole péloton so that they would race against each other, not be deployed on behalf of the even-more-elite talent to dispel any riff-raff with ideas above their stations, would be nice, you know?

The 2009 Tour was a garbage race because we had a neutered parcours, a few people who could have broken up the hegemony of the top couple of teams (Evans, Menchov, Sastre), were way undercooked, and all of the relevant talent was concentrated into the same 2-3 teams that just cancelled each other out all race. The spectacle was absolute trash and almost the only thing people remember about the race now is the off-bike drama. ASO made it easy for that outcome to manifest, of course, and Armstrong brought his own media circus, but the on bike spectacle there is the example of where having elite talent all clustered in the same teams doesn't benefit racing in any way, shape or form.

I see your point, I think many who follow bike racing see consolidation as a bad thing. Just guessing, maybe couple of riders on UAE, would agree it's a problem, today in this race! There is no practical solution. Everything, everyone is divided and you see teams that have already moved passed traditional cycling business model. Not hard to argue that UAE is not participating in traditional model and Astana is something other.. Bahrain? Outside regular lines.. Only time will tell.. Push recently came to shove in professional golf and they came to a compromise. Will Richard Plugge realize his dream ( your nightmare) I don't know.
One thing is for sure the sport is more in flux than ever before.. Where would things be wo Lease a Bike and Redbull?
I personally think that the first days being hard made the TDF better than most. And it's been a week, Remco semi cracked 2 times and a stage win..Jonas did bike change and chased back on w no help.. Cavendish played name that meal and he still won a stage..black guy from Africa, wearing sprinters green jersey.. Lots to like

 

[Netserk]

So based on their times I think Jorgenson just managed to catch Gall. Another disasterclass TT in the bag.

Heck, he'd have been caught even if they had 2 minutes between them! I didn't think he had it in him, but chapeau.

 

[Le Grand Doop]

People so silly saying in social media that the Tour is over. LOL. Tour was over before it started!!!

Seriously, In one stage in the mountains all differences can be wiped out.

Having said that, Pocagar continues to be number 1 favorite. Remco's getting closer in a TT changes absolutely nothing.

agreed.

Vingo still the threat and he sounds surprisingly confident.

for remco, the hope would be not to have one terrible day, and to climb at his pace. Let Pog and Vingo do their thing and then see if you can pull time back slowly. that would make the podium possible. and if he can do that he will surprise many and give him reason not to give up on his future GC dreams (even though I would love to see him focus on LBL, Lombardia, Worlds more than anything).

 

[pihi42]

It doesn't.

Yeah? Which sport doesn't have it's Messi/Ronaldo thing?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There is no practical solution.

Well, a budget/salary cap would help, but we're some way away from that.

And the more power the teams get, the more we are destined to avoid parity rules, because the top tier teams will always vote against it. Just look at F1, where they tried to encourage more teams to enter, to improve the dwindling field and interest... and all the teams would only allow it through once the new teams had been restricted so much that they couldn't be competitive, and they all pottered around the back and then ran out of money and left the sport again. Teams didn't want to split the money more ways, because it would affect the amount of money they could make.

Similarly, if they proposed ending relegation from the EPL tomorrow, teams like Crystal Palace, Ipswich, Nottingham Forest, they're going to vote for it in a heartbeat. They KNOW they're condemning themselves to eternal pauper status because they know they can't compete with the Manchester City and Liverpool types - but it's better for the financial bottom line to be losing every week at the top level than winning every week at the second tier.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Julien Bernard slapped with their new favourite 'damaging the image' charge, the ****ing bandits.

 

[Froome]

People so silly saying in social media that the Tour is over. LOL. Tour was over before it started!!!

Seriously, In one stage in the mountains all differences can be wiped out.

Having said that, Pocagar continues to be number 1 favorite. Remco's getting closer in a TT changes absolutely nothing.

The Tour is not over, very far from that.

It will be "absolute Cinema", especially in the last stages.

 

[pihi42]

The Tour is not over, very far from that.

It will be "absolute Cinema", especially in the last stages.

Counting on that, going to see stages 19-21 live!

 

[Faserr]

Julien Bernard slapped with their new favourite 'damaging the image' charge, the ****ing bandits.

UCI doesn't understand cycling if they think every rider is going as fast as he can to the line.

 

[Rackham]

The 4 best GT riders of this era are sitting 1-2-3-4 in GC.

I think that's actually quite rare considering how cycling takes duels away from us with crashes, illnesses & loss of form. So the blockbuster cast rarely actually delivers the blockbusters battles.

But this Tour looks poised for something interesting IMO. We have to hope everyone makes it through the next couple of stages unscathed.

 

[Kaptain Kool]

The 4 best GT riders of this era are sitting 1-2-3-4 in GC.

I think that's actually quite rare considering how cycling takes duels away from us with crashes, illnesses & loss of form. So the blockbuster cast rarely actually delivers the blockbusters battles.

But this Tour looks poised for something interesting IMO. We have to hope everyone makes it through the next couple of stages unscathed.

Best 4 GT riders of this era? Evenepoel has 1 overall win, a 12th in GC and 2 DNFs.

 

[ppanther92]

The 4 best GT riders of this era are sitting 1-2-3-4 in GC.

Calm your horses, Evenepoel won one Vuelta (only podium as well). Thomas won a Tour (5 podiums), Bernal won a Tour and a Giro, Froome is also still active .

 

[AmRacer]

Best 4 GT riders of this era? Evenepoel has 1 overall win, a 12th in GC and 2 DNFs.

We shouldn't count G. Thomas, Froome and Bernal.

 

[Rackham]

Best 4 GT riders of this era? Evenepoel has 1 overall win, a 12th in GC and 2 DNFs.

Calm your horses, Evenepoel won one Vuelta (only podium as well). Thomas won a Tour (5 podiums), Bernal won a Tour and a Giro, Froome is also still active .

I'll repeat myself here, i.e. they're absolutely the 4 best GT riders of this era.

There's really no debate here. It's 2024, i.e. you won't find higher rated GT riders than those 4 names. There's a reason they're calling them the fantastic 4, i.e. because that's the star cast.

If you want to talk about previous eras, go ahead, but right here & right now they're the biggest names in the sport in terms of GT racing.