Tour De France - Top 10 GC or Stage Win?

[sunnyIce]

For me;

Top 3 > Queen MTF Stage Win > Top 5 > MTF Stage Win > Top 10 > Sprint Stage Win > BreakAway Stage Win > Top 10+

So, in short, if I cant make a Top 10 I will start targeting stage wins. But If I am Top 10 or better, I will be very selective with going after Stage wins.

 

[sunnyIce]

What they should do however, and wish they did was,

make it mandatory to have a stage win to finish in the Top 3 of a GT. That would be so cool. So, by the end of the GT if you have not managed a stage win, but are Top 3 then you start dropping places

 

[Velolover2]

Re: Re:

Purito unlikely to finish at the podium, but Van Garderen might. How exactly? Based on what?! How many podium finishes Van Garderen have? What about Purito? So who might end up on the podium, and who's unlikely to do so?

Based on the fact that he has two Top 5 finishes previously.
Based on the fact that he is only 26.
Based on the fact that he had a very impressive Dauphiné.

Purito is arguably in decline. Van Garderen has had his best start to the season ever. At one stage in the next few years it is likely that Tejay will trump Purito as a GT rider. Maybe it will be next month.

I would say it is 50/50 who does better in the Tour this season. Maybe 51/49 in favour of the Spaniard. But I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.

Purito have a podium finish in TDF, plus three more, Van Garderen haven't got any
Purito is 35, but he rides like he is 26, there's no decline in his performances
Purito had a very impressive Pais Vasco and Ardennes campaigne

Van Garderen maybe had his best start of the season ever, but even with that start he is below Purito's performances this season. At one stage in the next few years, maybe he will trump Purito as a GT rider, but till that happens, and he need to back it up with results, he will never be considered as a better GT rider then Joaquim Rodriguez.

If you think that will happen next month, I offer you an avatar bet

I agree with this. I've always had the theory that age is determined on how long you have been peaking. In JRod's case, since 2010. It's quite clear that than rider like Péraud is physically younger than Basso. Even though he is actually older. Same way that Gesink, Van den Broeck and Cunego are older than Purito. The only exception to the rule is Valverde.

Unless he's in really bad shape, Purito should on paper not get beaten by Tejay.

 

[bassano]

Re: Re:

Purito unlikely to finish at the podium, but Van Garderen might. How exactly? Based on what?! How many podium finishes Van Garderen have? What about Purito? So who might end up on the podium, and who's unlikely to do so?

Based on the fact that he has two Top 5 finishes previously.
Based on the fact that he is only 26.
Based on the fact that he had a very impressive Dauphiné.

Purito is arguably in decline. Van Garderen has had his best start to the season ever. At one stage in the next few years it is likely that Tejay will trump Purito as a GT rider. Maybe it will be next month.

I would say it is 50/50 who does better in the Tour this season. Maybe 51/49 in favour of the Spaniard. But I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.

SOrry, but dauphine is one week crap like many other races, based on that race you can not predict just nothing
This year tour is much more for purito then TJ and TJ never reached purito level, do not think he will do it this year, he will need to learn more yet

 

[neineinei]

At least TJvG will have the whole team built around him, Purito will not. But let's not forget some of the reasons TJvG was top 5 last year: Bardet had a puncture on the last ITT and it lost him the fifth
No Contador
No Froome
No Quintana

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Purito unlikely to finish at the podium, but Van Garderen might. How exactly? Based on what?! How many podium finishes Van Garderen have? What about Purito? So who might end up on the podium, and who's unlikely to do so?

Based on the fact that he has two Top 5 finishes previously.
Based on the fact that he is only 26.
Based on the fact that he had a very impressive Dauphiné.

Purito is arguably in decline. Van Garderen has had his best start to the season ever. At one stage in the next few years it is likely that Tejay will trump Purito as a GT rider. Maybe it will be next month.

I would say it is 50/50 who does better in the Tour this season. Maybe 51/49 in favour of the Spaniard. But I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.

Purito have a podium finish in TDF, plus three more, Van Garderen haven't got any
Purito is 35, but he rides like he is 26, there's no decline in his performances
Purito had a very impressive Pais Vasco and Ardennes campaigne

Van Garderen maybe had his best start of the season ever, but even with that start he is below Purito's performances this season. At one stage in the next few years, maybe he will trump Purito as a GT rider, but till that happens, and he need to back it up with results, he will never be considered as a better GT rider then Joaquim Rodriguez.

If you think that will happen next month, I offer you an avatar bet

I don't use avatars on the forum (have them disabled so I don't see any). And I actually don't dislike any rider, so the bet would be meaningless for me. Furthermore, I actually think Tejay may struggle to beat Purito.

But if you want for pride, I will do this imaginary bet.

My thoughts exactly! Why do we argue then? I don't dislike TJ either, only thinks he's not at the level of Purito, at least not yet. No bet then...

 

[Jaunty Monty]

It depends on where the rider is in their career. For a rider hoping to prove themselves as a potential GC contender then a top 10 placing is key. On the other hand what does a previous winner of the Tour care about finishing 10th?

 

[pedromiguelmartins]

I hope Rui Costa focuses on what makes him great, and don't fight for GC.

 

[Squirbos_19]

A stage win is equal to finishing 6-10 on GC, in my opinion. I don't care if riders in 6-10 don't go for stage wins because sometimes they just aren't good enough and if they try they might blow themselves up and lose their top 10. But if a rider has lots of top 10s and no stage wins or very few, they should try for stages.

 

[Angliru]

Definitely this has always been the dilemma on our sport. Both are accomplishment and signifies that you are a world class talent but which is more valuable.

Let look at these elements:

1. UCI WT Points - finishing 10th gives you 50 points while winning a stage equates only to 20 points. So that means that you need to win three stages to justify that winning GT stages are more valuable that being a GC contender. Advantage Top 10 GC

2. Prize Money - A 10th place GC rider almost gets the same prize amount as a stage winner. Around 8000 euros. So they are almost in the same boat here. Ofcourse if a rider is qualified for the white jersey as finishing 3rd entitles you to a another 10,000 euro.

3. Statisfaction of Sponsors - I would think winning a stage is more for the benefit of the sponsors. Advantage Stage Win.

4. Rider's Perceived Value - Being a stage hunter offers a lot more opportunity to win prestigous races. Most of the stage hunters are sprint classics specialist while being a consistent top 10 does not guarantee a million dollar contract. Advantage Stage Win.

5. CQ Points System - Almost similar to UCI WT Points system, a rider should win two stages to match the points gathered when you placed 10th in the GC.

So what will be the tactic of Costa, Mollema, Rolland, Majka, Porte, Uran, Spilak, Kelderman, etc

I think if you believe your future is as a GC rider, like Majka and Porte presumably do, a top 10 GC finish is more important than a stage win, as it shows your class and overall potential as a GC rider. Carlos Sastre had a bunch of top 10 GC finishes before he won the 2008 TDF, and then promptly descended to the center of the Earth or to wherever he disappeared, maybe Andy SchleckVille.

If you don't have the talent, including time-trialing ability, to contend for Grand Tours, like Rolland and everyone else mentioned above, then I'd lean towards stage wins, for the reasons cited above.

Maybe the saddest place to be is where Andreas Kloden spent his career, the climbing and time-trialing talent to win Grand Tours, especially the at-the-time much weaker Giros and Vueltas in terms of fields, but the secondary role of supporting Jan Ullrich or Lance Armstrong, and the lack of permission to go for stage wins that is the super domestique's plight. Kloden should have won 2 or 3 Giros & Vueltas, and could have won a TDF or two with a bit of luck and team permission (2004, 2006, 2009).

-Sastre had his greatest success, his Tour victory, right at the point when a rider reaches the declining years of his career. He immediately switched to a freshly launched Pro Continental team, where he had multiple responsibilities in addition to those of team leader.

-Kloden had his chances but unless it was a one week stage race he seemed more comfortable in a support/super domestique role in the grand tours. When given leadership he consistently disappointed.

 

[IndianCyclist]

A lot of rider are like kloden and TJVG. They focus exclusively on the TDF. IMO a top 5 in Giro/Vuelta is better than top 10 TDF