Tour De France - Top 10 GC or Stage Win?

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Stage win on a MTF is worth more than 4-10 imo. Only podium is better.

Don't agree.

Van den Broeck in 2010/2012 > Vanendert on plateau de beille

Who was 4th in the tour when armstrong, contador or pantani won on plateau de beille?

In 2004 Ullrich...hard to forget that. Admittedly I forgot who was 4th in 2007...but I did remember most of the top 10. Honestly I think most people are going to remember Voeckler's great Tour in 2011 over Vanendert's win on the plateau beille.

 

[Jspear]

If I was a professional cyclist, I would rather finish in the top10 than win one stage. I think it's more of a proof your capabilities. You can win a stage being lucky to have a good day and launch an attack at the right time and top players not bothering to chase you. To be in the top10 you need to be consistently good throughout 3 weeks (losing 7 minutes one day doesn't put you totally out of contention, but losing half an hour probably does). Of course there is a big difference between 4th and 10th so it all depends on circumstances. It's not the same to chose between 4th in GC and a lucky win after peloton gifted you a stage or between anonymus 10th in GC and a well deserved stage win beating top contenders in straight fight and perhaps finishing between 11th and 15th in GC as well.

Although if I have previously finished between 6th and 10th in GC few times and never won a stage, I would rather try to go for a stage win if I feel I can't finally break into top5. But you never know what things are going to be like in 3rd week. Unless you are a legend that won many big races during his career, it's not wise to give up on GC as long as you are in contention for top10. It matters a lot to your team, sponsors and future contract prospects. And you are never guaranteed to win a stage even if you sacrifice your GC chances.

This exactly.

 

[Gigs_98]

Gereally a stage win counts more than a 10th place. But when I have to compare a 5th place with a stage win it depends on the stage of the victory. A win on a mtf definitely counts more than a win on a flat stage because in five years nobody will remember what stage it was and what exactly happened during the stage.

 

[Jspear]

So what will be the tactic of Costa, Mollema, Rolland, Majka, Porte, Uran, Spilak, Kelderman, etc

Costa should just go for stage wins. No way he can compete for a high place in the top 10. Mollema will most likely attempt a top 10. I'd like to see Rolland go for stage wins and the mountains jersey...I love watching him race. Majka and Porte will slave for their masters. I'd like to see Majka attack in the final of a stage or two and take a stage win. Uran, I have no clue what to expect from him. Is he even riding? Spilak will work for Jrod - maybe he could go for a stage win. Kelderman will probably go for a top 10.

 

[Anderis]

I personally don't understand why so many are rating a stage win over a top5 GC.

Would I rate Kadri as a rider over Valverde or Van Garderen in 2014? Hell not!
Riblon over Kreuziger in 2013? Hell not!

And so on. Finishing in top5 requires a lot more.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Re:

When a rider has retired, his stage win will be a highlight of his palmares. His eighth place will be irrelevant.

During his career however a top 10 GC place at the Tour will add more to his wage packet and leader status within his team. Jurgen Van den Broeck has earned a lot more money, despite never really winning anything much, than any rider who got a stage or two in the same period but never troubled the GC top 10. It's an unpleasant fact, but it is a fact.

yep, the points system have inflated the value of these pointless placements to ridiculous heights.

And the system drives boring racing. Riskfree, defensive and backwards.

 

[phanatic]

Re: Re:

In 2004 Ullrich...hard to forget that. Admittedly I forgot who was 4th in 2007...but I did remember most of the top 10. Honestly I think most people are going to remember Voeckler's great Tour in 2011 over Vanendert's win on the plateau beille.

Tommy V's greatest achievement, in my book, even if Hoogerland was stricken and more heroic, and even if Rolland dragged him around France. Rolland's stage win on the Alpe is probably the only stage win I would place above even a podium finish. Well, that and Vino's win in Paris.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

yep, the points system have inflated the value of these pointless placements to ridiculous heights.

And the system drives boring racing. Riskfree, defensive and backwards.

Anything that creates an incentive for second tier GC men to ride defensively is a bad thing. I'm not sure if the culprit here is the points system though, or just the wildly disproportionate importance of the Tour, and the Tour GC in particular, within the sport.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

Top 5 in Tour > stage win > top 10 in Tour.
Top 3 in Vuelta/Giro > stage win > top 5 in Vuelta/Giro.

However, it all depends on how you achieve your top 10/5 or stage wins. Sprint victories (like Cavs 25 wins or Kittels 8 wins), I wouldn't rate very highly if seen individually. Likewise, Van Garderens two 5th place finishes in the Tour don't stand out as memorable to me, because of the way he earned them.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Re: Re:

yep, the points system have inflated the value of these pointless placements to ridiculous heights.

And the system drives boring racing. Riskfree, defensive and backwards.

Anything that creates an incentive for second tier GC men to ride defensively is a bad thing. I'm not sure if the culprit here is the points system though, or just the wildly disproportionate importance of the Tour, and the Tour GC in particular, within the sport.

I think is a combination. Points and event importance.
Let the rider stay relevant PR wise (GC 7 placement for 18 stages with national interviews daily) and score some points for 2016.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

In 2004 Ullrich...hard to forget that. Admittedly I forgot who was 4th in 2007...but I did remember most of the top 10. Honestly I think most people are going to remember Voeckler's great Tour in 2011 over Vanendert's win on the plateau beille.

Tommy V's greatest achievement, in my book, even if Hoogerland was stricken and more heroic, and even if Rolland dragged him around France. Rolland's stage win on the Alpe is probably the only stage win I would place above even a podium finish. Well, that and Vino's win in Paris.

Rolland's stage win on the Alpe was wonderful, especially considering who he was racing against. IMO he'll need to come 2nd or better in a GT to top that.

 

[42x16ss]

What does everyone remember more? Chiapucci's win at Sestrieres in 1992, or the fact he finished second on GC? Pantani's crazy Alpe times, or his final GC positions? Vino vs McGee on the Champs Elysee or Vino moving up a spot on GC on the final day?

 

[Jspear]

Re:

What does everyone remember more? Chiapucci's win at Sestrieres in 1992, or the fact he finished second on GC? Pantani's crazy Alpe times, or his final GC positions? Vino vs McGee on the Champs Elysee or Vino moving up a spot on GC on the final day?

Both equally! I remembering thinking it was funny seeing him deny the sprinters and slipping 1 place higher in the gc...still I get your point. I think most here have agreed that a stage win is better than a top 10 place, but not necessarily better than a top 5.

 

[Pulp]

For most of the rider types the question is not relevant. It only applies for maybe 10 riders or so in each tour.

You have your Purito, Costa and Rolland type of riders that probably have to decide on either top10 or aiming at stage wins, They are unlikely to finish at the podium anyways, but are capable of top 10 of course.
But for a guy like van Garderen, of course he has to race for the GC. He might end up on the podium, or he might finish 8th.
If the latter is the result, I suspect he would have wanted to win a stage instead, but if he manages the first, the tour would be a huge success.

And obviously: You have riders like Cancellara, Cavendish, Sagan & Boonen (The list is much longer really) that I would rate much higher than say your Talansky or van Garderen. As most cyclists they dont have the body type of a gc contender, but they have more impressive palmares than most of the regular top 10 GC contenders could ever dream of imo.

 

[Miburo]

Re: Re:

Stage win on a MTF is worth more than 4-10 imo. Only podium is better.

Don't agree.

Van den Broeck in 2010/2012 > Vanendert on plateau de beille

Who was 4th in the tour when armstrong, contador or pantani won on plateau de beille?

In 2004 Ullrich...hard to forget that. Admittedly I forgot who was 4th in 2007...but I did remember most of the top 10. Honestly I think most people are going to remember Voeckler's great Tour in 2011 over Vanendert's win on the plateau beille.

Not the same thing at all, voeckler had the yellow jersey for a long time too. Of course that's worth more

 

[bassano]

Re:

I dislike riders defending GC 6-10 positions.

I can accept a neo pro or a rider returning after some issues going for a soft GC, but a 28 yo (example) with almost no wins protecting/defending a 7th place (GC) for 15 stages is simply ridiculous.

I will back a rider who tries to win always.

I completelly agree with this, riders like Konig, Ten Dam, Mollema which rode only to preserve their top 10 and be so happy from it, no attack, no action, just suck wheels of TOP GC contenders up to cracking and who is able to suck more and crack later
much more I value Sagan (even if he did not won stage, he won jersey) , Kristoff, Kittel guys which won full competition stage (not from escape)
cycling is about victory and always was
but also I do not value so high queen stage victory by some random guy from the escape, when GC guy win queen stage it is completelly different story and completelly different value

 

[barmaher]

As a rule of thumb, winning is the key. Nobody dreams as a kid of cycling down the Champs Elysees in 9th or limiting one's losses in a Time Trial to secure an 8th position.

Every aspirational cyclist dreams of winning a Tour stage, getting your name in almost every national newspaper across the globe, your podium ceremony on national news. The flowers, the glory.

As mentioned above, context is everyhing though. There was a lot of glory in Tommy V's fourth place in the Tour and the way it was obtained, compared to van den Broeck's fourth the following year.

Or there was a lot more glory in Andy Schleck's win on Galibier than there was in Cavendish's win in Montpellier from Farrar a few days earlier.

 

[Swifty's Cakes]

I want to put my arms in the air every time. 7th place is the 6th best loser.

 

[kiilike]

I like many points for TOP 10 GC, and also for TOP 20 GC. There are 22 teams with 198 riders. You have to give them more reasons to fight. It will be boring if there will be only TOP 3 valuable, which means there are maybe six teams fighting for it.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

For most of the rider types the question is not relevant. It only applies for maybe 10 riders or so in each tour.

You have your Purito, Costa and Rolland type of riders that probably have to decide on either top10 or aiming at stage wins, They are unlikely to finish at the podium anyways, but are capable of top 10 of course.
But for a guy like van Garderen, of course he has to race for the GC. He might end up on the podium, or he might finish 8th.
If the latter is the result, I suspect he would have wanted to win a stage instead, but if he manages the first, the tour would be a huge success.

And obviously: You have riders like Cancellara, Cavendish, Sagan & Boonen (The list is much longer really) that I would rate much higher than say your Talansky or van Garderen. As most cyclists they dont have the body type of a gc contender, but they have more impressive palmares than most of the regular top 10 GC contenders could ever dream of imo.

Purito unlikely to finish at the podium, but Van Garderen might. How exactly? Based on what?! How many podium finishes Van Garderen have? What about Purito? So who might end up on the podium, and who's unlikely to do so?

 

[Billie]

Oscar Pereiro fought for 10th place in both the 2004 and 2005 Tour de France. He finished 10th both times but did it in such a magnificent, exciting, aggressive way that the cycling gods rewarded him with the Win in 2006. _O_ He should be an example for all the Mollema's, Zubeldia's and Fuglsangs out there.

 

[barmaher]

Re: Re:

Purito unlikely to finish at the podium, but Van Garderen might. How exactly? Based on what?! How many podium finishes Van Garderen have? What about Purito? So who might end up on the podium, and who's unlikely to do so?

Based on the fact that he has two Top 5 finishes previously.
Based on the fact that he is only 26.
Based on the fact that he had a very impressive Dauphiné.

Purito is arguably in decline. Van Garderen has had his best start to the season ever. At one stage in the next few years it is likely that Tejay will trump Purito as a GT rider. Maybe it will be next month.

I would say it is 50/50 who does better in the Tour this season. Maybe 51/49 in favour of the Spaniard. But I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Purito unlikely to finish at the podium, but Van Garderen might. How exactly? Based on what?! How many podium finishes Van Garderen have? What about Purito? So who might end up on the podium, and who's unlikely to do so?

Based on the fact that he has two Top 5 finishes previously.
Based on the fact that he is only 26.
Based on the fact that he had a very impressive Dauphiné.

Purito is arguably in decline. Van Garderen has had his best start to the season ever. At one stage in the next few years it is likely that Tejay will trump Purito as a GT rider. Maybe it will be next month.

I would say it is 50/50 who does better in the Tour this season. Maybe 51/49 in favour of the Spaniard. But I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.

Purito have a podium finish in TDF, plus three more, Van Garderen haven't got any
Purito is 35, but he rides like he is 26, there's no decline in his performances
Purito had a very impressive Pais Vasco and Ardennes campaigne

Van Garderen maybe had his best start of the season ever, but even with that start he is below Purito's performances this season. At one stage in the next few years, maybe he will trump Purito as a GT rider, but till that happens, and he need to back it up with results, he will never be considered as a better GT rider then Joaquim Rodriguez.

If you think that will happen next month, I offer you an avatar bet

 

[ninjadriver]

Definitely this has always been the dilemma on our sport. Both are accomplishment and signifies that you are a world class talent but which is more valuable.

Let look at these elements:

1. UCI WT Points - finishing 10th gives you 50 points while winning a stage equates only to 20 points. So that means that you need to win three stages to justify that winning GT stages are more valuable that being a GC contender. Advantage Top 10 GC

2. Prize Money - A 10th place GC rider almost gets the same prize amount as a stage winner. Around 8000 euros. So they are almost in the same boat here. Ofcourse if a rider is qualified for the white jersey as finishing 3rd entitles you to a another 10,000 euro.

3. Statisfaction of Sponsors - I would think winning a stage is more for the benefit of the sponsors. Advantage Stage Win.

4. Rider's Perceived Value - Being a stage hunter offers a lot more opportunity to win prestigous races. Most of the stage hunters are sprint classics specialist while being a consistent top 10 does not guarantee a million dollar contract. Advantage Stage Win.

5. CQ Points System - Almost similar to UCI WT Points system, a rider should win two stages to match the points gathered when you placed 10th in the GC.

So what will be the tactic of Costa, Mollema, Rolland, Majka, Porte, Uran, Spilak, Kelderman, etc

I think if you believe your future is as a GC rider, like Majka and Porte presumably do, a top 10 GC finish is more important than a stage win, as it shows your class and overall potential as a GC rider. Carlos Sastre had a bunch of top 10 GC finishes before he won the 2008 TDF, and then promptly descended to the center of the Earth or to wherever he disappeared, maybe Andy SchleckVille.

If you don't have the talent, including time-trialing ability, to contend for Grand Tours, like Rolland and everyone else mentioned above, then I'd lean towards stage wins, for the reasons cited above.

Maybe the saddest place to be is where Andreas Kloden spent his career, the climbing and time-trialing talent to win Grand Tours, especially the at-the-time much weaker Giros and Vueltas in terms of fields, but the secondary role of supporting Jan Ullrich or Lance Armstrong, and the lack of permission to go for stage wins that is the super domestique's plight. Kloden should have won 2 or 3 Giros & Vueltas, and could have won a TDF or two with a bit of luck and team permission (2004, 2006, 2009).

 

[barmaher]

Re: Re:

Purito unlikely to finish at the podium, but Van Garderen might. How exactly? Based on what?! How many podium finishes Van Garderen have? What about Purito? So who might end up on the podium, and who's unlikely to do so?

Based on the fact that he has two Top 5 finishes previously.
Based on the fact that he is only 26.
Based on the fact that he had a very impressive Dauphiné.

Purito is arguably in decline. Van Garderen has had his best start to the season ever. At one stage in the next few years it is likely that Tejay will trump Purito as a GT rider. Maybe it will be next month.

I would say it is 50/50 who does better in the Tour this season. Maybe 51/49 in favour of the Spaniard. But I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.

Purito have a podium finish in TDF, plus three more, Van Garderen haven't got any
Purito is 35, but he rides like he is 26, there's no decline in his performances
Purito had a very impressive Pais Vasco and Ardennes campaigne

Van Garderen maybe had his best start of the season ever, but even with that start he is below Purito's performances this season. At one stage in the next few years, maybe he will trump Purito as a GT rider, but till that happens, and he need to back it up with results, he will never be considered as a better GT rider then Joaquim Rodriguez.

If you think that will happen next month, I offer you an avatar bet

I don't use avatars on the forum (have them disabled so I don't see any). And I actually don't dislike any rider, so the bet would be meaningless for me. Furthermore, I actually think Tejay may struggle to beat Purito.

But if you want for pride, I will do this imaginary bet.