Tour de Suisse 2012: Stage 3; Martigny → Aarberg (195km)

[Grytskanken]

155 William ROUTLEY Spidertech Powered by C10 0:13:22
156 Igor ANTON Euskaltel - Euskadi

Anton having a hard time here

Was not much better yesterday where he lost more than 13 min....
Totally lack of form or just training?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Is there a reason you won't answer a direct question?

I did answer the question. Did I not spell it out clearly enough for you?

Today, if I was the DS of a team with a second rate sprinter and nobody in the break, I'd have ordered the team to try and control the break. In general, if I was the DS of an extremely expensively assembled team built around sprinters and the kind of GC men who have never attacked in their whole lives, I would order them to try to control every break, every climb, every attack. I'd have them out there trying to suck the joy out of every race.

It is perfectly rational for a team like Sky to do this. Just as it was perfectly rational for Liquigas to try to kill the Giro. Just as it is perfectly rational for someone watching the sport in the hope of entertainment to resent them for it.

Now, while we're talking about straight answers to straight question, what reason, other than knee-jerk nationalism or masochism, could a cycling fan have for cheering for grim predictability?

 

[hatcher]

I did answer the question. Did I not spell it out clearly enough for you?

Today, if I was the DS of a team with a second rate sprinter and nobody in the break, I'd have ordered the team to try and control the break. In general, if I was the DS of an extremely expensively assembled team built around sprinters and the kind of GC men who have never attacked in their whole lives, I would order them to try to control every break, every climb, every attack. I'd have them out there trying to suck the joy out of every race.

It is perfectly rational for a team like Sky to do this. Just as it was perfectly rational for Liquigas to try to kill the Giro. Just as it is perfectly rational for someone watching the sport in the hope of entertainment to resent them for it.

Now, while we're talking about straight answers to straight question, what reason, other than knee-jerk nationalism or masochism, could a cycling fan have for cheering for grim predictability?

You didn't answer it, and you still haven't. You talked all around it, because the obvious answer is you'd have ridden exactly the same as they did. You would have whether you were DS for Sky, Orica, Liqui, Garmin, Lampre, or anyone with a sprinter.

To the claims of nationalism, I'm sure that's part of why some root for them, just as it is with Rabo, Orica, Liquigas, Euskaltel, Garmin, and many, many more teams. However, 18 of Sky's 28 riders are non-Brits, and there's certainly no shortage of support for EBH, Uran, Henao, Nordhaug et al.

If you find them boring, that's fine, others, including me, don't. You blame them for stages like Joux-Plane, I blame the others for not trying to break it up. Quintana proved the pace was one that could be attacked.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Zinoviev Letter speaks of grim predictability, but was it?
40kms to take back 8 and a half minutes is quite some chase.
Had there not been a determined, multiple team chase, the break would have stuck.
Even then, it remained in the balance until the final few kms.

What was the alternative? If they hadn't chased after the barrier delay, we would have had the bunch en block across the road, at tootling tempo, arriving minutes behind. (but, presumably in time for Costa to retain the lead)

That's real grim predictability.

 

[tomorrow]

OK, if your just talking Stage 5, tomorrow, was on about his future as a GT GC man?

Well, to be precise, a specifically was talking about 5th stage this year, yes.

As far as my thoughts, wishes or just predictions are concerned, in those I only told, that with his competitive and stubborn attitude, hi might try GC as a challenge. As slovak I would be really glad if that worked, but that's very uncertain and that's why I named this try a challenge specificaly.

To his stubbornes and willingness to win, I can say one story from his youth. During one race, he got into an escape with 4 other boys from the same team. They wanted to make a deal with him, that they would give him 2nd place if he helped exchange with them on the front. He rejected to be 2nd, they had boiled him eventually and he finished fifth. He just wanted to make anything to win, and maybe that's why he is so good in what he decides to do.

But with the uncertainty, I must oposse someone on this forum, I don't think he would have to loose 20kg to achieve this. It's true that he's 10cm taller(according to wiki, however I am not really sure that 184cm is his real height, i don't know why i think he is 17x something hight) than Cadel Evans, but he's only 6kg heavier. So maybe he may not win gc in gt, however in one week races that are not so hilly as tds, he could roll.

And yes, If he wanted to be GC contender, he would loose his sprinting ability, but with coming age he would loose part of it sooner or later.

Again, these are only my thoughts, but I am not saying anywhere this will happen for sure, currently it's just in state, that it is not that impossible that he would be great also at GC. But maybe he would suck. And maybe on the contrary, he will gain some strenght and enduracne and will become another cancellara. This way is open too.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

You didn't answer it, and you still haven't.

I'm beginning to think that you may have a reading comprehension problem here. I've told you twice now that Sky are behaving in a rational manner, trying to optimise their chances of winning given the resources at hand. I don't think that they suck the joy out of cycling out of malice. It's a statement of the bleedin' obvious that they have good reasons to race as they do - it's just that their interest in grinding out wins is diametrically opposed to a fan's interest in exciting racing.

To the claims of nationalism, I'm sure that's part of why some root for them, just as it is with Rabo, Orica, Liquigas, Euskaltel, Garmin, and many, many more teams. However, 18 of Sky's 28 riders are non-Brits, and there's certainly no shortage of support for EBH, Uran, Henao, Nordhaug et al.

If you find them boring, that's fine, others, including me, don't. You blame them for stages like Joux-Plane, I blame the others for not trying to break it up. Quintana proved the pace was one that could be attacked.

That, on the other hand, really is an attempt to evade a question.

You haven't offered a single positive reason why any cycling fan would cheer for Sky other than nationalism or a masochistic urge to watch boring races. They are the team in the peloton most likely to try to control a race and least likely to attack. They are anti-cycling.

 

[IH8LANCE]

I don't think you shouldn't try in case you fail. I do however hate teams whose central strategy is to try and throttle every race, control every break, control every climb, control everything.

Sky have huge money at their disposal, which means that they can hire very strong domestiques. They have used that strength so far this year to the detriment of many, many races and it seems to be their plan for every race from here on in. As a neutral, with no nationalist affiliation with Sky, why on earth would I cheer for that?

I'm not irrationally opposed to Sky out of some obscure prejudice. I actually liked them up until this season. But controlled racing is the enemy as far as excitement is concerned and Sky are all about controlled racing, in every type of race, and are now strong enough to actually succeed in controlling things far too often. Some British fans might enjoy that out of sheer nationalism, but nobody is really a fan of that kind of racing.

I disagree. I watch team racing because I enjoy the tactics. Sky knows it generally has the horses to control the race and they do what they can to maximize that advantage. I may enjoy watching stages that involve more risk and flamboyant attacks, but I very much appreciate a team that deploys their weapons to the greatest tactical advantage. The goal of the race is to win within the rules, not to throw away an advantage because it's not as aesthetically exciting. I would not describe myself as a "fan" of teams that seek to control the race. I'm a fan of teams that appreciate winning within the rules, above all else. There's nothing more pathetic than a loser who could have won, but for less panache. JMO

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

I disagree. I watch team racing because I enjoy the tactics.

There's no great tactical depth involved in buying up a metric ton of very high level domestiques and then plonking them on the front all day, every day, controlling everything. It's the same bloody tactic in every bloody race. And its success or failure essentially depends on budget alone.

 

[JibberJim]

It was Swifts first UCI points wasn't it? Presumably the GB side of Team Sky still need to get riders qualified for the World Champs? And this stage was a good chance for Swift to pick some up, so even if the chances of beating Sagan were extremely poor, the need for points is just too important under current UCI rules.

 

[IH8LANCE]

There's no great tactical depth involved in buying up a metric ton of very high level domestiques and then plonking them on the front all day, every day, controlling everything. It's the same bloody tactic in every bloody race. And its success or failure essentially depends on budget alone.

I understand your point. I have to disagree. Tactics don't have to be byzantine or variable, to be admirable or interesting. I suppose perhaps I am a bigger fan of what teams do before getting on the bike than you are. Sky had a plan with its budget and the riders it targeted for its roster, and has implemented it to perfection. I appreciate that. It is up to the other teams to perceive the weakness in a predictable team and try to exploit it if they can. Sky's method may not be the most flamboyant style of team cycling (a huge understatement I admit) but I vehemently disagree with your statement that it is "not cycling". Of course it is. And generally speaking, it works.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Tactics don't have to be byzantine or variable, to be admirable or interesting.

That, I think, is our core disagreement. Doing the same thing in every race may be tactically sound, but it is not tactically interesting.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That, I think, is our core disagreement. Doing the same thing in every race may be tactically sound, but it is not tactically interesting.

Which is why I've been arguing for less repetitive and predictable race routes, because it means that the same trick can't work in every single race like it has done this year, which has been the worst year of cycling in living memory from a spectacle point of view.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I want smaller teams. 8 riders/9 riders is too much. 5 man per team would lead too much more interesting racing

 

[IH8LANCE]

That, I think, is our core disagreement. Doing the same thing in every race may be tactically sound, but it is not tactically interesting.

Tactically admirable however, which in my opinion adds a level of interest. But don't get me wrong - I do appreciate your point of view.

 

[Frosty]

Then again we had stages in the Giro where no-one seemed too keen to chase and people moaned about how boring the stage was, with a bunch of relative nobodies taking the win.

 

[Frosty]

I still dont understand why some of the weaker teams dont join forces and try to get 3+ men in the break each as 10 guys going hard from the start would surely stand a good chance? Hopefully it would be good publicity for the team even if it doesnt work as long as they make a good fist of it. Why doesnt this happen? Do they try but find that the sprinters' teams send in people just to sit on and not work?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I still dont understand why some of the weaker teams dont join forces and try to get 3+ men in the break each as 10 guys going hard from the start would surely stand a good chance? Hopefully it would be good publicity for the team even if it doesnt work as long as they make a good fist of it. Why doesnt this happen? Do they try but find that the sprinters' teams send in people just to sit on and not work?

They do this sometimes, but you do get people playing monitor, of course, and you do also find that the péloton simply doesn't like to allow a large group that will work together well get up the road early in flat stages. In mountain stages they have more chance, hence why you often see bigger breaks in those.

Sometimes teams go for this kind of ultra-aggressive approach, but this is typically in races with smaller teams. In the 2010 Tour of Turkey for example, teams were of 6 and 7. Cofidis had 3 out of 7 on the attack at the end of one stage; ISD sent 4 out of their 6 in the break of the day on one stage! Still couldn't stop HTC from taking Greipel to about 5 interminably dull wins, but at least the route to the sprint wasn't quite as dull, and they did set the GC on one stage thanks to Oscar Gatto and Giovanni Visconti.

 

[roundabout]

Nice gift bag. Well worth the chase.

http://mypict.me/index.php?id=341305520

 

[cocteau_ireland]

I want smaller teams. 8 riders/9 riders is too much. 5 man per team would lead too much more interesting racing

I agree. Rich owners/backers have realised that large investment=large return(until it becomes an arms race). I want to see riders exposed and relying on their own mettle, at occasionally.

 

[Ruudz0r]

I want smaller teams. 8 riders/9 riders is too much. 5 man per team would lead too much more interesting racing

Problem would be that teams need to get a lot smaller aswell or there should be much more races on the calender (but as a lot of races can hardly handle their economics right now I dont see that happen). So if they would ever go with that rule a lot of riders would no longer be pro.

 

[Geraint Too Fast]

If anybody else was wondering why Spilak abandoned today - he's suffering from back pain after being involved in a collision with a car the day before the TT.

http://www.siol.net/sportal/kolesarstvo/2012/06/sagan_do_nove_etapne_zmage_na_dirki_po_svici.aspx

 

[greenedge better then some]

Baden Cooke returned serve from weening for a spot in the tour..

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Baden Cooke returned serve from weening for a spot in the tour..

are you serious. Weening is already sure of Tour selection, so is Langeveld btw.

Weening is also about their only hope in the mountains anyway

 

[theyoungest]

Baden Cooke returned serve from weening for a spot in the tour..

Weening has already been guaranteed a Tour spot. And of course what he showed in the Dauphiné was a little more impressive than getting through a corner first in a sprint.

This is actually the first sign of life by Baden Cooke since Oman, what has he been doing?

 

[greenedge better then some]

Weening has already been guaranteed a Tour spot. And of course what he showed in the Dauphiné was a little more impressive than getting through a corner first in a sprint.

This is actually the first sign of life by Baden Cooke since Oman, what has he been doing?

just ask the guy who came 5th on the stage today about a guaranteed tour spot

was a tongue in cheek line dekker ,