Tour Match Up: Gesink v Van Den Broeck

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Seems Gesink had some delay in his mountain training

 

[The Hitch]

Rabo ttt team.

 

[theyoungest]

Rabo ttt team.

Lol. Their TTT training consists of them learning to not shit in his face.

 

[Je ne sais quoi]

People are assuming Scarponi was crap because Contador took 5minutes on him. ...

[This isn';t exactly on point, but a good excuse to reminisce about the giro...]

Yes, Scarponi earned points with me for being one of the only guys with the moxy to dare to follow Contador's early attacks in the Giro. He paid big time for it earning an almost-mortal wound, and everyone else learned their lesson from him while staying in their safe zones, and it almost cost him second place overall.

As I recall it, the only other guy who dared to respond directly and immediately to a Contador attack was the Kruijsracket, of all people, in a big surprise that could have been just a suicide mission at first, and he also paid dearly for it. But he came back a few stages later and showed that he meant it (big respect ---> fan --> potentially the stuff of legend).

Maybe I'm just a romantic, but those were the kind of battles that made the Giro an epic like something out of Greek mythology (and of course including Rujano and many others in their own way). I find it harder to get excited about Nibali's style of knowing his own limitations.

 

[Anonymous]

this thread needs to be in the first page

 

[Punter]

I am looking forward to seeing JVDB in the mountains. I was impressed with him in the Dauphine and he looked very good today as well. He seems to have more confidence in his ability and is prepared to attack and not just follow wheels. I doubt he will trouble Contador but I could see him challenging for the podium.

I think he will finish ahead of Gesink.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

So far he is 19 seconds behind, and Gesink has always been much better in the mountains than short 1km hills.

I expect Jvdb peaked too early and will get gradually worse.

 

[kurtinsc]

So far he is 19 seconds behind, and Gesink has always been much better in the mountains than short 1km hills.

I expect Jvdb peaked too early and will get gradually worse.

Well, he lost 27 seconds in the TTT. So far he's been 8 seconds faster on the hills. So far there really hasn't been much separation with them, other then the fact Rabo was a better TTT squad then Lotto this year.

It is a shame Gilbert covered JVDB's move for stage 4... he may have won otherwise.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Rabobank also has better support in the mountains for Gesink than JvdB, who pretty much only has Vanendert and Gilbert...

Anyway I think in the high mountains, the REAL mountains, Gesink will suprise many. ESpecially the guys that lose belief after today.

 

[Spine Concept]

I am looking forward to seeing JVDB in the mountains. I was impressed with him in the Dauphine and he looked very good today as well. He seems to have more confidence in his ability and is prepared to attack and not just follow wheels. I doubt he will trouble Contador but I could see him challenging for the podium.

I think he will finish ahead of Gesink.

He just puts much more effort into these early stages than Gesink, who's riding very conservatively. Can't say that VDB2 stood out in that regard, I will reserve my judgement for the mountains. I still think Gesink will finish ahead of VDB2.

 

[Spine Concept]

Well, he lost 27 seconds in the TTT. So far he's been 8 seconds faster on the hills. So far there really hasn't been much separation with them, other then the fact Rabo was a better TTT squad then Lotto this year.

It is a shame Gilbert covered JVDB's move for stage 4... he may have won otherwise.

Hills are not mountains, he could be 20 seconds faster than him on the hills but it would still mean nothing come the big mountains. VDB2 said so himself the other day, half a minute is nothing by the time they hit the mountains. He's been more active than Gesink, I'll give you that. Other than that, Gesink is just being himself, sucking at punchy climbs. He'll be just fine.

 

[Havetts]

The only feeling I get sometimes is that Gesink runs such an extremely low gear that he has to peddle too much to move forward. Wasnt worried about today, hoped he wouldnt lose time but wasnt surprised he lost this little .

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I've got the feeling he has gotten worse at it every year. He was better as neo-pro on these type of finishes as he is now.

20/21 year old Gesink would fly past 25 year old Gesink on a short climb like this.
That's the only thing I find annoying. He improves one aspect but gets worse at another.

If he 'fixed' this weak point, accelerations+steep hill finishes, he'd be a complete GC rider. Now he is a gc rider with still a few flaws

 

[Midnightfright]

I've got the feeling he has gotten worse at it every year. He was better as neo-pro on these type of finishes as he is now.

20/21 year old Gesink would fly past 25 year old Gesink on a short climb like this.
That's the only thing I find annoying. He improves one aspect but gets worse at another.

If he 'fixed' this weak point, accelerations+steep hill finishes, he'd be a complete GC rider. Now he is a gc rider with still a few flaws

He's still got plenty time and he's pretty good even with his flaws.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I know, but it's just annoying on the days like these. Even if it's only 8 measly seconds.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I expect Jvdb peaked too early and will get gradually worse.

What exactly are you basing this on? The fact that he finished 4th in the Dauphiné (because he finished 4th there last year as well) or the fact that he ended up in front of two 1km uphill finishes before Gesink? By that logic, Gesink and Schleck got their timing right and everybody else peaked too soon? Either way, seems more like wishful thinking than anything else. Which doesn't mean to say it's not possible of course, but you could just as easily claim Gesink peaked too late. Too soon to tell IMO, so we'll know in two weeks.

I'm also baffled with the comments that Gesink traditionally isn't good at punchy finished, because i always thought he was much better at that than JVDB, who has virtually NO punch. Seriously, how many times did he try to make a gap in the Dauphiné, and how many times did the gap get larger than 20 meters? Just watch the stage he won. He makes the gap on the flat, not by his jump. Also Gesink jumps away from JVDB the last 200 meters (or so) to finish second after Rodriguez. Gesink in the tour last year, also had more punch in his attacks than JVDB (first mountain stage, and the one where he is trailing and comes back to jump ahead).

 

[Spine Concept]

What exactly are you basing this on? The fact that he finished 4th in the Dauphiné (because he finished 4th there last year as well) or the fact that he ended up in front of two 1km uphill finishes before Gesink? By that logic, Gesink and Schleck got their timing right and everybody else peaked too soon? Either way, seems more like wishful thinking than anything else. Which doesn't mean to say it's not possible of course, but you could just as easily claim Gesink peaked too late. Too soon to tell IMO, so we'll know in two weeks.

I can see where D_T is coming from in the sense that he's been ''good'' ever since the Dauphine. It's not just about Gesink, stop being an instigator. It's a reasonable observation. However, I wouldn't directly pin it down to peaking too early, he's just been much more active, partly because he worked for Gilbert as well. However, we will indeed have to wait until we hit the mountains to make a proper assessment.

I'm also baffled with the comments that Gesink traditionally isn't good at punchy finished, because i always thought he was much better at that than JVDB, who has virtually NO punch. Seriously, how many times did he try to make a gap in the Dauphiné, and how many times did the gap get larger than 20 meters? Just watch the stage he won. He makes the gap on the flat, not by his jump. Also Gesink jumps away from JVDB the last 200 meters (or so) to finish second after Rodriguez. Gesink in the tour last year, also had more punch in his attacks than JVDB (first mountain stage, and the one where he is trailing and comes back to jump ahead).

Gesink has gradually regressed in that area with this year being his worst. VDB2 has a seemingly much easier time answering a change of tempo when going up hill vis-a-vis Gesink. The latter opts for riding his own tempo and eventually catching up again. This can be a risk and is therefore a definite weakness of his. He can either catch up in time or lose potentially precious seconds. What is baffling is why they haven't addressed this weakness yet, if he was better in the past then he definitely has the capability.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I can see where D_T is coming from in the sense that he's been ''good'' ever since the Dauphine. It's not just about Gesink, stop being an instigator. It's a reasonable observation. However, I wouldn't directly pin it down to peaking too early, he's just been much more active, partly because he worked for Gilbert as well. However, we will indeed have to wait until we hit the mountains to make a proper assessment.

I'm not being an instigator, i'm asking why he thinks so and am comparing the two since... you know, this is a topic comparing them? JVDB was also very good in the first week of the tour last year, so i don't see a reason to assume, at this point, that he has peaked too soon.

Gesink has gradually regressed in that area with this year being his worst. VDB2 has a seemingly much easier time answering a change of tempo when going up hill vis-a-vis Gesink. The latter opts for riding his own tempo and eventually catching up again. This can be a risk and is therefore a definite weakness of his. He can either catch up in time or lose potentially precious seconds. What is baffling is why they haven't addressed this weakness yet, if he was better in the past then he definitely has the capability.

But still, before this week, even in the Dauphiné not even a month ago, Gesink showed to still have a better punch than JVDB. So i'm somewhat confused as to why a lot of people here (also in the tdf topic) seem to think it's normal for Gesink to not be able to do this, while guys like Wiggins and JVDB ended up in front of him. Same goes for Schleck btw.

PS: about being an instigator, maybe you should read your own posts of a couple of days ago.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Gesink only showed punch at the end of a long climb, that's nothing new.
That's because he has more energy left than the others by riding his own pace and never too much in the red.
For a guy with the name logic-is-your-friend I thought it would be logic that that is a different kind of punch, a different kind of effort, to be precise.

It has far less to do with punch and more with how much energy you have left.
Totally incomparable to a 1km climb.

Let's put it in figures shall we?
The Mur-de-Bretagne is a 600-650W (top riders maybe higher?) effort for about 2 minutes.

A long climb is a 380-420W effort for 40m to 1 hour... A sprint in the end, or a jump in the final 500m like that one of Gesink is 440/450W..

Gesink is still capable of placing a jump at the end of a tough mountain at 440W. But he is unable to go 600/650W for 2 minutes on a steep gradient. He simply lacks the pure power.

 

[Havetts]

What you saw was that Gesink doesnt punch from the base of the climb, he needs to get in his tempo, catch up and keep on riding his tempo with accelerations. You never saw Gesink explode the bunch from the start, not in the Dauphine or the Tour. Because this climb is so short he has troubles getting in his rythm and cant keep up at the start cause its so explosive and cause its so short he cant place a punch.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Gesink only showed punch at the end of a long climb, that's nothing new.
That's because he has more energy left than the others by riding his own pace and never too much in the red.
For a guy with the name logic-is-your-friend I thought it would be logic that that is a different kind of punch, a different kind of effort, to be precise.

It has far less to do with punch and more with how much energy you have left.
Totally incomparable to a 1km climb.

Let's put it in figures shall we?
The Mur-de-Bretagne is a 600-650W (top riders maybe higher?) effort for about 2 minutes.

A long climb is a 380-420W effort for 40m to 1 hour... A sprint in the end, or a jump in the final 500m like that one of Gesink is 440/450W..

Gesink is still capable of placing a jump at the end of a tough mountain at 440W. But he is unable to go 600/650W for 2 minutes on a steep gradient. He simply lacks the pure power.

I can live with that. It's actually also one of the theories as why Gilbert is so good at these finishes. Because he is just better at conserving power DURING the race, so he is more fresh at the end. It would explain why he won stage 1 but not stage 4 (after a couple of hard days for Lotto). On the other hand, it doesn't explain why he attacked at the Belgian Championship long before the final and still had the juice to finish it off. But anyway, i'm sure that could be the explanation for Gesink, conserving power during the climb. Still strange to see someone like Wiggins in front of him though.

 

[Spine Concept]

I'm not being an instigator, i'm asking why he thinks so and am comparing the two since... you know, this is a topic comparing them? JVDB was also very good in the first week of the tour last year, so i don't see a reason to assume, at this point, that he has peaked too soon.

Sure he was, but the notion is still not far-fetched in the sense that someone who does not know how VDB2 races this time of year would reach the same conclusion as D_T. That's all I'm saying.

But still, before this week, even in the Dauphiné not even a month ago, Gesink showed to still have a better punch than JVDB. So i'm somewhat confused as to why a lot of people here (also in the tdf topic) seem to think it's normal for Gesink to not be able to do this, while guys like Wiggins and JVDB ended up in front of him. Same goes for Schleck btw.

PS: about being an instigator, maybe you should read your own posts of a couple of days ago.

I'm assuming you missed this year's Tirreno where Gesink displayed his lack of punch once more. His time trialing, of all things, almost got him the win at the aforementioned race. Attacking in the last kilometer is hardly something new for Gesink, it hardly attests to his punch, or lack thereof. He just has more left over by the end it seems. Look at Rodriguez' attack at the Dauphine and compare that to Gesink's, now that is having punch. Schleck albeit surprising was an anomaly I reckon.

Regarding your p.s. you are one to talk, I think we've both been going at each other long enough, I just wanted to prevent that today. You are not making it easy though. We are both outspoken and opinionated posters and are bound to clash more often than not. Help me out here by not enticing another perpetual, and often pointless back and forth. Are you capable of doing this?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I basically replied to your arguments (which match those of the other posters) in my post above. No problem.

I'm an opiniated poster, but generally i consider myself a fair one. I enjoy a discussion, but i do not enjoy a gang-up and childish insults. It should be no surprise that and how i react to those. As for your actual question, willing and able.

 

[Spine Concept]

I basically replied to your arguments (which match those of the other posters) in my post above. No problem.

I'm an opiniated poster, but generally i consider myself a fair one. I enjoy a discussion, but i do not enjoy a gang-up and childish insults. It should be no surprise that and how i react to those. As for your actual question, willing and able.

Likewise, I enjoy a good discussion and certainly do not take things lying down as many posters in this thread will attest to. However, I always try to make factual statements and will mostly defend my convictions all guns blazing. Some people might take offense to that. Anyway, so we have an understanding, which is good since our discussions are of inferior quality and doesn't add any value to this forum most of the time - last time I got reprimanded by a mod which is not why I signed up for on this forum. However, I look forward to some decent - and fiery - discussions in the future . Cheers.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Rabobank also has better support in the mountains for Gesink than JvdB, who pretty much only has Vanendert and Gilbert...

Anyway I think in the high mountains, the REAL mountains, Gesink will suprise many. ESpecially the guys that lose belief after today.

me too, I am taking yesterday as a grain of salt.

he does appear bad on such small steep finishes tho