TRT - Testosterone Replacement Therapy

[mastersracer]

I note that you haven't answered the questions but are very quick with the name calling. Anyone would think you've got some funky hormone spikes going on there.

You've cited Joe Papp - where is the evidence to support Papp's assertions? To remind you:

Experience? Have you tried to use TRT and been rebuffed?
Do you know people who tried to get a TUE for TRT?
How many cases do you know where TUE for TRT has been rejected?
How many TUEs do you know of that have been accepted for TRT?

To add to that do you agree with Oldman's comments about TRT usage?

I know of zero masters racers who have applied for a TUE and zero who are racing with one. I have never had any interest in TRT because I believe it is mostly a ruse by the pharma industry to create a new market and I would be worried about the links with prostate cancer. Declining testosterone with aging is in part the result of lifestyle factors, which should be addressed rather than simply putting on a patch - in the same way erectile dysfunction is due to underlying cardiovascular conditions that should be addressed rather than popping a pill - but there's not much $ in that for the pharma industry.

I also spend two days a week in the gym doing heavy Olympic lifts - squats, cleans, deadlifts, etc. and 2 days/week at the velodrome doing sprint work as I believe masters racers should change their emphasis from traditional endurance training to one focusing on intensity and strength.

I also race because I enjoy it and know that if I were cheating I wouldn't enjoy it any longer - I've raced long enough to know there are people I compete against or have competed that don't hold this, but that has never had any bearing on what I do or don't do.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Fair enough. Do you agree with Oldman about its usage at masters level (albeit illegally)?

Do you think TRT is being used illegally within the pro-peloton?

 

[Oldman]

I know of zero masters racers who have applied for a TUE and zero who are racing with one. I have never had any interest in TRT because I believe it is mostly a ruse by the pharma industry to create a new market and I would be worried about the links with prostate cancer. Declining testosterone with aging is in part the result of lifestyle factors, which should be addressed rather than simply putting on a patch - in the same way erectile dysfunction is due to underlying cardiovascular conditions that should be addressed rather than popping a pill - but there's not much $ in that for the pharma industry.

I also spend two days a week in the gym doing heavy Olympic lifts - squats, cleans, deadlifts, etc. and 2 days/week at the velodrome doing sprint work as I believe masters racers should change their emphasis from traditional endurance training to one focusing on intensity and strength.

I also race because I enjoy it and know that if I were cheating I wouldn't enjoy it any longer - I've raced long enough to know there are people I compete against or have competed that don't hold this, but that has never had any bearing on what I do or don't do.

Sorry Murph...I agree with MR on this. While the abuse appears to be widespread and the abusers have legitimate prescriptions (in their mind); they aren't stupid enough to announce the usage. Or apply for a TUE.

I also wholeheartedly embrace his reason for continuing although some of the competition is justifying their cheating...mostly to themselves.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I also race because I enjoy it and know that if I were cheating I wouldn't enjoy it any longer - I've raced long enough to know there are people I compete against or have competed that don't hold this, but that has never had any bearing on what I do or don't do.

Sounds like me, I am sorry

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Sorry Murph...I agree with MR on this. While the abuse appears to be widespread and the abusers have legitimate prescriptions (in their mind); they aren't stupid enough to announce the usage. Or apply for a TUE.

I also wholeheartedly embrace his reason for continuing although some of the competition is justifying their cheating...mostly to themselves.

Contrary to popular opinion, I'm not actually looking for an argument about this.

I'm interested in thoughts about how widespread its use is at any/all levels. How widespread do you think the use of TRT?

 

[gobuck]

" I am sorry, I must be in the wrong office. I was looking for an argument. No problem, that's down the hall."

 

[DirtyWorks]

Boxing-related story on Testosterone use, but still relevant. Some of the details don't fit in cycling, but overall it should be pretty informative.

The average T/E ratio (Testosterone to Epitestesterone) for most humans is 1:1. Past age 28, T/E levels in males begin to drop 1% each year on average in the thirties and beyond.

Most recently, Alistair Overeem of the UFC was caught in a random drug screening with a ratio of 14:1. National League MVP Ryan Braun was also caught with reported T/E ratio of 20:1.

To be fair to both California and Nevada, they do their fair share of catching testosterone users. But the reason they are is that the men getting caught are either greedy or stupid. The states respectively allow you to have four to six times the normal amount of testosterone you would produce over a week’s time. Had the athletes stayed within their respective commission’s guidelines, they would have never been caught. Does that sound familiar?


http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Gabriel/Montoya0505a12.htm

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Contrary to popular opinion, I'm not actually looking for an argument about this.

I'm interested in thoughts about how widespread its use is at any/all levels. How widespread do you think the use of TRT?

It is pretty hard to tease out those who seek TRT legitimately. One endocrinologist says this,

"In recent years, Spyros Mezitis, MD, PhD, has found himself talking to a lot more male patients about low testosterone, a diagnosis he says is becoming increasingly common. "More men are getting older, and men are more open about talking about erectile dysfunction," Mezitis, an endocrinologist at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York City, tells WebMD."

But it is also clear that Big Pharma is promoting the heck out of the "low testosterone as age advances" as the solution to a host of health problems that may have nothing to do with testosterone. The same article quotes Dr. Mezitis,

"On the one hand, increased diagnosis of low testosterone is driven by an aging population, less stigma, and more precise tests. But there's another big reason why men come to Mezitis' office for a testosterone test. "Men are bombarded by media, by advertising campaigns -- 'Don't feel well? Ask your doctor about low testosterone,'" he says.

The Master racer can take advantage of this phenomenon by simply claiming erectile dysfunction. And who in Master's racing bothers with the complicated TUE process? Most prefer to take the risk of getting caught.

 

[proffate]

The Master racer can take advantage of this phenomenon by simply claiming erectile dysfunction. And who in Master's racing bothers with the complicated TUE process? Most prefer to take the risk of getting caught.

You could probably get a prescription from a quack (or "wellness" doctor) for any old reason, but a legit endocrinologist would likely require an actual diagnosis of low testosterone (via a blood test).

I don't think USADA issues TUEs for TRT except under very strict circumstances (e.g. no testicles). I tend to think USAC doesn't really /want/ to cut off that income stream anyway: if 10% of masters racers are on TRT, that's a huge cut of the weekly race entries; actually catching them would be super expensive. You could argue a cleaner sport would grow larger in the long run, but when has USAC shown itself to be far-sighted?

 

[D-Queued]

...

The Master racer can take advantage of this phenomenon by simply claiming erectile dysfunction. And who in Master's racing bothers with the complicated TUE process? Most prefer to take the risk of getting caught.

Precedent in Canada suggests that TRT isn't an accepted excuse.

As I recall, that was the proposed explanation in this case:

Cyclist Suspended for Testosterone Violation

... at 46 years of age my health and well being decisions will remain my priority ...

IOW, 'I love Testosterone'.

Dave.

 

[zigmeister]

What makes it more significant is that hypogonadism is a side-effect of steroid use.

Are we just making a general statement that men with secondary hypogonadism must all be taking steroids which has caused their condition?

Because you are talking a very small minority, low single digit, that have this condition due to taking steroids.

Lastly, there is no known person who has been granted a TUE for TRT usage in cycling in the US. They will claim medical privacy B.S. if you ask them.

Me thinks there is a difference between synthetic and natural testosterone. I bet the good teams will know the difference. And to the 'testing' of course.

ROFL...wow. Everything that describes the "clinic" in a few short sentences. You have to be joking right?

IMO it's OK to take it if your quality of life depends on it. Don't race.

This makes no sense. Can you prove in any scientific manner whatsoever that a person who is taking synthetic testosterone and has a level of, oh, let's say 600ng/mL is anymore enhanced performance wise, than a person who has a natural level of 600ng/mL?

I'll be waiting for eternity for your answer.


We need to head over to the "what defines performance enhancing" thread. Because as usual, there is some sort of stigma with taking a synthetic testosterone that mimicks identically what your body produces and call that "doping". When there are people taking all sorts of FDA approved drugs, even drugs that don't require a TUE, that allows someone to go from not being able to compete, to competing everyday. Yet that somehow isn't doping.

If you are going to accept and apply logic/reason to one drug, then you need to do it for all of them. Either you accept reasonable levels of Testosterone, no matter what the source, that fall in a specified/controlled/monitored range...as well as albuterol, allergy medications headache medicines and so forth, or you ban every single thing on planet earth except water. That includes caffeine.

This is my contention as discussed in the other thread.

The original post asks a question, and a few of us responded, MMA, who cares, this is a cycling forum. So in relation to cycling, there is no evidence/information/proof that USA Cycling has ever allowed a TUE for TRT usage for any reason. There was an article I read awhile back, wish I could recall/remember the link. Where a guy decided to try and race fairly and apply for a TRT, it was rejected with no explanation...as expected. So the guy decided not to race under some moral high ground that apparently USADA/USA Cycling have control over entirely.

 

[zigmeister]

IMO it's OK to take it if your quality of life depends on it. Don't race.

This makes no sense. Can you prove in any scientific manner whatsoever that a person who is taking synthetic testosterone and has a level of, oh, let's say 600ng/mL is anymore enhanced performance wise, than a person who has a natural level of 600ng/mL?

I'll be waiting for eternity for your answer.

 

[zigmeister]

Me thinks there is a difference between synthetic and natural testosterone. I bet the good teams will know the difference. And to the 'testing' of course.

ROFL...wow. Everything that describes the "clinic" in a few short sentences. You have to be joking right?

 

[Oldman]

Are we just making a general statement that men with secondary hypogonadism must all be taking steroids which has caused their condition?

Because you are talking a very small minority, low single digit, that have this condition due to taking steroids.

Lastly, there is no known person who has been granted a TUE for TRT usage in cycling in the US. They will claim medical privacy B.S. if you ask them.




ROFL...wow. Everything that describes the "clinic" in a few short sentences. You have to be joking right?



This makes no sense. Can you prove in any scientific manner whatsoever that a person who is taking synthetic testosterone and has a level of, oh, let's say 600ng/mL is anymore enhanced performance wise, than a person who has a natural level of 600ng/mL?

I'll be waiting for eternity for your answer.


We need to head over to the "what defines performance enhancing" thread. Because as usual, there is some sort of stigma with taking a synthetic testosterone that mimicks identically what your body produces and call that "doping". When there are people taking all sorts of FDA approved drugs, even drugs that don't require a TUE, that allows someone to go from not being able to compete, to competing everyday. Yet that somehow isn't doping.

If you are going to accept and apply logic/reason to one drug, then you need to do it for all of them. Either you accept reasonable levels of Testosterone, no matter what the source, that fall in a specified/controlled/monitored range...as well as albuterol, allergy medications headache medicines and so forth, or you ban every single thing on planet earth except water. That includes caffeine.

This is my contention as discussed in the other thread.

The original post asks a question, and a few of us responded, MMA, who cares, this is a cycling forum. So in relation to cycling, there is no evidence/information/proof that USA Cycling has ever allowed a TUE for TRT usage for any reason. There was an article I read awhile back, wish I could recall/remember the link. Where a guy decided to try and race fairly and apply for a TRT, it was rejected with no explanation...as expected. So the guy decided not to race under some moral high ground that apparently USADA/USA Cycling have control over entirely.

You won't have to wait...it's against the rules. I'm not here to prove any relative advantage/disadvantage as it would be selective evidence at best. The rules reasoning is for the same logic; unless governing bodies wished to spend money making the same comparisons and monitor usage/dosage they would inevitably condone it's overall usage.
Your posit that small dosages don't present an advantage may be correct in select cases and the UCI rightfully isn't in the business to do that. Let the rider's union fight for it if it's a true issue.
I'll say again-this is a hard sport and not everyone is genetically disposed to be successful. Crossing the line to "equalize" a statistical disadvantage quickly becomes a justification. I'm not saying you can't race...just don't presume you are justified in changing your natural makeup to compete.

 

[D-Queued]

You won't have to wait...it's against the rules. I'm not here to prove any relative advantage/disadvantage as it would be selective evidence at best. The rules reasoning is for the same logic; unless governing bodies wished to spend money making the same comparisons and monitor usage/dosage they would inevitably condone it's overall usage.
Your posit that small dosages don't present an advantage may be correct in select cases and the UCI rightfully isn't in the business to do that. Let the rider's union fight for it if it's a true issue.
I'll say again-this is a hard sport and not everyone is genetically disposed to be successful. Crossing the line to "equalize" a statistical disadvantage quickly becomes a justification. I'm not saying you can't race...just don't presume you are justified in changing your natural makeup to compete.

This.

You have three choices:

1. Play by the rules
2. Change the rules
3. Cheat

Odd how many seem to pick #3. The excuses, though, are even stranger.

Dave.

 

[MarkvW]

What if they held races for testoterone-jacked 40+ guys? Would the hormonally enhanced guys still invade the clean races?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

What if they held races for testoterone-jacked 40+ guys? Would the hormonally enhanced guys still invade the clean races?

Yep! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Catwhoorg]

What if they held races for testoterone-jacked 40+ guys? Would the hormonally enhanced guys still invade the clean races?

I believe so, if the downsides are minimal and the upside (WINNING /EGO massaging) remains as it is today.